Registered Magnum ammo?

[merlindrb]

Ed

I completely agree with you, as I said in our email exchange, that's the first ever large primer pre-war Western case I've ever seen. Congrats on finding it!

 

[smith17]

Dave:
Referencing your comment on page 2 regarding Winchester .357 Metal Piercing, have you ever seen any pre-war boxes of this stuff? I have been accumulating Winchester ammo catalogues from that period (1941 is the latest) and can't find any reference to that being chambered in .357 magnum. The '41 catalogue has only one loading which is the 158 grain lead bullet. Just wondering if you or anyone else has any pics of any pre-war in this MP configuration.
Ed

 

[GONAVY]

Is this in need of becoming a Sticky??? Great thread.

 

[merlindrb]

Ed

I'll try to dig around the ammo cabinet and see if I can find an example. You never know...

 

[BRush]

Here are three 1930 style "picture" boxes of Peters 357 ammo. Staged with (on top) a Pre-War Non-Registered 357 Mag, SN 62xxx, and a Registered 357 Mag, Reg No. 2224.

The pictures were shot in fluorescent light and he camera white balance was set to compensate. The color difference between the boxes in the pictures does not show in full spectrum light. I can't say if the color difference is real or or a photo effect.

At first glance at the top, sides and the end panels the boxes look the same. Note the same code, 3575, on the end panel.

But each box contains a different variation of this loading. The top box contains nickel cases with small primers, the middle box has nickle cases with large primers and the bottom box has brass cases with large primers. No where on the boxes is the type of case called out. Note the different stampings on the inside of the end flaps. Also, the Circled "P" logo on the lower left corner on the top of the lower box has Reg info in red. The logo on the other boxes do not. Was this an early practice that was later discontinued?

The backs of the boxes show the top box has the Bridgeport address, which dates the top box as early to mid 1940's. The bottom two boxes have the kings Mills address dating them from the late 1930's.

 

[smith17]

Mr. Rush:
Very interesting variations on the ammo. In the link below, m-1911 has even another address variation at the bottom of the post. And if you read Jim's (SRT) views, the Bridgeport address doesn't necessarily indicate postwar production.
Do you have any period Peters ammunition catalogs of which you could post the covers? I have searched high and low for some, and also 30s Remington, without luck. Western and Winchester seem fairly common.
Nice pics.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5401039...321069203#2321069203

Ed

 

[BRush]

Thanks for the references Ed. I don't have any period Peters catalogs. If you have not already done so, you might try the guys at the Remington Society. A lot of Remington ammo collectors are members and they may have info on Peters after Remington acquired that brand in the early 1930's.

 

[BRush]

Not 357 boxes, but 4 Early to mid 1930 boxes of high speed loads for law enforcement for use in heavy frame Special handguns such as the Outdoorsman and the Heavy Duty.

The Western "Super Police" 200 grain Lubaloy bullet is pretty hard to find. This box is probably the earliest loading as you can see on the upper left corner of the back it refers to W.C.Co.

The Remington "Dogbone" box of "38-44 S&W Special" was of course expressly loaded beginning in the early 1930's for the Outdoorsman and the Heavy Duty.

As described by Jim(SRT)on the Early 357 Ammo thread, the Peters Highway Patrol in these boxes with Kings Mills address date from at least as early as the mid 1930's.

The Remington green and red Kleanbore box is a post WWII box for most loadings. However, like Bob (Merlindrb) said earlier in this thread, there are exceptions for many calibers including possibly this Highspeed loading. I know Remington produced the 38 Super "Mushroom" bullet loading in this box in the 1930's.

As shown below, all 4 loadings are with small primers.

Here are pictures of the ends, sides and backs of the 4 boxes.

 

[smith17]

Mr. Rush:
Nice photos; thanks for revealing them to us. I don't recall seeing the Remington Hi-Speed box of 158 gr. rounds before.

Below is a collection of the 3 Winchester Super Speed .38 Special options available between 1935 and The War, designed for the .38/44 S&W and others capable of handling the increased performance. The top one is the conventional lead bullet offering while the second one, with the unconventional box design, is the Lead Bearing or Metal Point projectile. This second one has a large primer and both of these have a muzzle velocity of 1,115 fps. The third box contains the metal piercing rounds, small primer, m.v. of 1,175 fps and is the only round of any handgun caliber in the Winchester Ammo guides of 1938 and 1941 to have a metal piercing bullet.

Interestingly, the headstamp on the latter (below) doesn't contain any Winchester or W.R.A. designation, only SUPER SPEED .38 SPECIAL.
The ammo (not shown) in the second box has a headstamp reading W.R.A. SUPER .38 SPL.

The original order form for the pre-war .357 Magnum has a place at the bottom for the purchaser to select the ammo they want used in the sighting process. Although not specified, most are recognizable as representative of particular ammo companies, although I am not familiar with the one at the top of the second column, ...Hi-Velocity. It could be an abbreviation of Peters' High Velocity. Roy has indicated that the .357 Magnum ammo used was Winchester since they cooperated with the development of the cartridge.
Ed

 

[BRush]

Very nice post Ed. I had not seen the 38 Special super speed loading in the "1932 style" box before other than on page 284 of Ray's book. A very nice find. My guess is that this loading was superseeded by the super speed loading in the "1939" style box you show at the top.

I also like the metal piercing loading in the "1935 style" box. The lack of Winchester reference on the head stamp on these rounds is interesting. I wonder if Western also produced this loading using the same head stamp during this time. Conversely. I wonder if Winchester produced a version of the metal piercing 357 loading during this period using the same Western head stamp as shown for western earlier on this thread.

I'm not sure as to the "38 S&W Special HI-Velocity reference either. Peters produced a Rustless 38 Special High Velocity loading during this time but I'm not familiar with a "HI-Velocity" Loading by Winchester or any other maker. Maybe somebody can shed some light on this question.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

I just bought today a box exactly like your 38/44 high speed and the 110 grn highway patrolman ammo. Neat stuff. I also got a box of 200 grn and a pre-war box of 38 special. Next time I get my chrono out I will have to test some.

 

[smith17]

Mr. Rush:
A slightly different variation of your Remington Hi-Speed Lead bullet, here is a metal point (R264). It is not pointed, just coated with a copper plating and has a small primer. The bottom of the box references the .38/44 Outdoorsman but not the Heavy Duty.
Ed

 

[BruceHMX]

I've put out some of this ammo for sale in the Accessory section.

Thanks

 

[Twoeyes]

Hey all,
Just joined and one of the reasons is the gun in the picture..Looks like a "K"? I have one that looks like it except my front sight is pretty much like a long half moon. Smooth when viewed from the side. When looking from the front, it looks like it was just cut thinner on both sides and is an integral part of the barrel. its got a serial # of S 813882 on the butt. Looks just like the one in your pic other than that. Barrel is stamped patented feb 6.00, sept 14:09, dec 23:14
right side stamped 38 S ck (?or cl or & my eyes aren't the best now) W.special CTG and barrel measures 4 1/4 from front to frame.
Any help on what it is?
Thanks all
Tddo

Originally posted by merlindrb:
It's not often (these days

) that I disagree with my esteemed friend Dick Burg. However, until recently I also believed that these boxes were post-war. Then I bought a couple of guns that went to Western in 1936/7 and began to take more interest in the company. As part of this interest I "acquired" a few pre-war Westerm ammo catalogs from Ebay and, lo & behold, there were these 357 boxes exactly as pictured above. The rest of the Western boxes in the shown in the catalog picture are clearly the pre-war target style - as per the style of the .32 S&W Long Western box at the bottom of the pic below. In the catalog, only the .357 Magnum appears to be in the Super-X packaging.

Re the small primer, I agree that Winchester and Remington used large primer initially, as did Peters. However, I've come across some Western test ammo that supposedly dates from 1938 and is clearly small primer (see pics below). Now, we might speculate (and you know how I love to do that

) that perhaps Western were the people that developed small primer magnum ammo and did so in the late 30's... That might also explain their need to purchase test guns in 1937 (factory letters clearly state "for testing purposes").

Thoughts anyone??

Butch - to answer your original question. I paid $100 for a box in Tulsa and thought I'd done well. Hope it helps.

 

[smith17]

Twoeyes:
Your gun with the S prefix should be a transitional M&P from around 1948 or so.

Mr. Rush:
Referencing your excellent post at the bottom of Page 3, the Peters .357, I submit one more version of the same ammo. Notice this box has the Bridgeport address on the bottom right corner instead of spread across the entirety. Lead bullet, nickel cartridge case not referenced on the box, small primers.
Ed

 

[BRush]

Ed, Thanks for the post. I've added it to my "reference" file.

 

[smith17]

Another difference in two boxes of Winchester .357 Magnum ammo: The pic below is the end flap of two 1935 style boxes (before the Western and Olin callouts). One refers to the round as the S.&W. .357 Magnum while the other doesn't mention S&W on the flap. These two boxes share one identical side but the second side is different. Thought it was an interesting note.
Ed

 

[bettis1]

Ed,

This is the kind of thing which makes trying to "date" ammo boxes a frustrating and almost impossible task.

I'd guess that these are just two separate printing runs and from the same general period. Depending upon which came first (and we'll probably never know), the typesetter's logic probably ran something along these lines: 1)"Oops, I forgot the S&W" or 2) "This layout certainly looks neat and clean and calls attention to the .357 caliber which is the most important part of this identification". (I'd bet that the one without the S&W, whether first or last, was followed by a phone call from the Factory attorney.)

Thanks for posting.

Bob

 

[jimmyj]

Hi:
I recall using that ammo in the 1950s.
That and "Armor Piercing" ammo was the only .357 ammo avialable.
The ammo in question (158 gr LSWC) would lead the bore "Big Time".
Jimmy

 

[smith17]

I recently had a wrench thrown into the gears of my logic concerning pre-war Winchester .357 Magnum factory primers. A couple of years ago I picked up a tattered box with about half of the original ammo, large flat primer in a nickel plated shell. It is shown on page 2 of this thread. The first 2 pages of the thread bandy about comments regarding whether ammo is pre- or postwar depending on the size of the primer (except Western which nearly always has a small primer).
Recently I had the opportunity to add another box to my collection which was the 1935 style (no Western or Olin callout) with the nickel plated shell stamp on the top and bottom. However, the ammo had small, round primers and a headstamp of SUPER SPEED 357 MAGNUM. After acquiring it, I began to doubt the originality of the ammo in relation to the box and contacted a gentleman who has an excellent reputation in dating older ammunition and presented my findings to him.
He consulted his database and personal boxes and assured me that my ammo was within spec and, most likely, original pre-war ammo. According to his data, small round primers in the .357 Magnum cartridge began coming out of the E. Alton factory around October of 1936. The SUPER SPEED headstamp also appeared in 1936 from both factories, E. Alton and New Haven.
There are also some differences in the design of the tops/bottoms of these boxes but I have not seen any in this thread so will not confuse things any further.
Ed