Revolver vs. Pistol

[EMP3]

The "shot placement is king" thing is so over done. Why every LEA teaches COM hits, because the avg shooter can deliver true accuracy in a combat situation. A 22lr in the heart is likely fatal but the guy can kill you long before he dies. So we use bigger calibers & multiple hits to stop an attack sooner than later. The bad guy needs one lucky shot to your CNS for you to lose the fight, just one. Bigger guys have lots of nonvital area to put bullets into, so having more before a reload is always better than having less.

^^^This is the best post I've read in this thread^^^

 

[EMP3]

Rastoff,

There's a reason martial arts are known as arts.

I've yet to meet a martial artist who didn't think he was a trained killer. Then they run into a dude who has never stepped into a dojo but knows how to fight and does not know losing. Martial arts ain't worth bandages when the opponent is an authentic bad dude who has done it many times.

Martial arts theory fails miserably in reality of a street fight. Size of opponent does matter. The bigger they are, the harder they hit.

Action is faster than reaction, which messes with martial arts strategy. A very bad dude who has already decided to drop you with a straight right to your chin will do it before you know you're on concrete.

Martial arts movies are choreographed. Bruce Lee was an actor. Chuck Norris is an actor. He used to compete in regulated competition. Regulated competition should never be confused with a street fight. There are no rules in street fights.

A couple weeks ago I met a petite woman in an upscale sports bar. She was a trained killer. She told me so. She had been trained by a few "masters" of trained killing. I asked her if she had ever been in a fight. She hadn't. I asked her how she thought it'd work out for her were a well put-up, studly dude to grab her. She was clueless. She was set up for failure. Someone had taught her enough to become a very real danger to herself. I told her to buy pepper spray.

Mike Tyson was the most overrated heavyweight to ever enter a ring. In the late 80's before he went to the joint for rape, he had signed to fight Holyfield. Ali said there was no way Tyson had a prayer against Holyfield. Holyfield was not a bum of the month. For his limited intellect, Tyson did manage to come up with a winner when he said, "Everyone has a plan until they get hit."

I've known a lot of martial artists, some famous including in many, many films. Put Chuck Norris in his prime against a 6-6 350 pound Hell's Angel, and Chuck would have been lucky to have survived. A street fight is a whole lot different than regulated ring competition.

In a former line of work, I've been in my share of what were supposed to be controlled application of use of force. When a bad guy doesn't want to go to jail, it becomes a street fight. There are no choreographed moves. The idea is to rock his world before he lands a straight right to your chin.

I will not fight. I've had far too many orthopedic surgeries. A third-grader could whip me. I do have pepper spray. Even though I can carry a handgun everywhere I choose, I don't carry. Carrying a handgun is like having a child with you that has to be constantly watched. In So Cal, should someone see a handgun, cops will respond. They will be aggressive and seize control immediately. The sooner they can gain control, the greater the chances they'll survive. Hence, cops will prone out a man with a gun until they figure out what they have. But were I to feel a need to carry, I would. However, my primary strategy for remaining vertical is avoiding bad places. The only known way of surviving a gun fight is to not get in one.

A 10th degree black belt in trained killer martial arts won't be guaranteed an 11th were he to run up against a really bad dude who knows there are no rules in street fighting. Avoid them at all costs, which could be expensive and painful.

When you meet an authentic murderer who'd kill you as soon as look at you, it'll make sense to you.

There's a reason it's called martial arts.

Nothing more that my opinion based upon experience and what I know to be true...

 

[Sol-Invictus]

That is what everyone who lost to Hoice Gracie thought in the no holds barred fight, didn't matter the size, superior technique won every time.

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[EMP3]

That is what everyone who lost to Hoice Gracie thought in the no holds barred fight, didn't matter the size, superior technique won every time.

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Hoice Gracie was a has-been and never-was. He was a juicer (steroids).

MMA/UFC has referees. They're not "no holds barred" fights.

A journeyman boxer would have retired Hoice by the 2nd round.

 

[Sol-Invictus]

Hoice Gracie was a has-been and never-was. He was a juicer (steroids).

MMA/UFC has referees. They're not "no holds barred" fights.

A journeyman boxer would have retired Hoice by the 2nd round.

I am referring to the original fights not the sanitized version today. Sorry Royce Gracie. I noticed you didn't challenge the skill statement.

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[Donn]

I am referring to the original fights not the sanitized version today. Sorry Royce Gracie. I noticed you didn't challenge the skill statement.

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Exactly right. I've got vids of the old UFC. No weight classes, you fought whoever was across from you. The only rules were no biting or eye gouging. Grapplers ruled the early days. Ken Shamrock, Dan Severn, Ivan Taktarov, and most notably, Royce Gracie. Strikers had little or no ground skills. Once the fight went to the mat, it was only a matter of time. Oh yeah, there were no rounds or time limits, it went till it was over. I suspect most people's exposure to Royce Gracie was when he was dismantled by Matt Hughes under the new rules structure. Had this match taken place under the old format, when Gracie was in his prime, it would've been a different story.

 

[diyj98]

Hoice Gracie was a has-been and never-was. He was a juicer (steroids).

MMA/UFC has referees. They're not "no holds barred" fights.

A journeyman boxer would have retired Hoice by the 2nd round.

As the poster wrote above, the early UFC's were pretty much no holds barred with strikes to the groin, stomps to the head, and most other things being legal.

That boxer wouldn't have lasted one round in a no holds barred fight with Royce or any of the Gracies. James Toney found out how much his boxing helped against Randy Couture.

 

[Struckat]

i like to carry full size autos when possible. Sig 220 is really my favorite. The 220 compact is a little sweetie that i shoot as well as the full size.
My 1994 Sig 229 in .357 Sig is one that gets a lot of carry time.

Then I have some J frames that like to tag along with the bigger guns when we go to the hood. I will up the capacity when we have to go to less friendly places.

66-8 2.75" will get some carry in the future, but I need to shoot it a lot more. The M69 is more of an up north carry, woods or no.

I have bought and sold quite a few over the years and have found the ones that work best for me, the ones I shoot the best.

Only one plastic gets a spot, the SP01 Phantom. Classic CZ feel and performance, full size fun.

There is no auto vs revolver in my world, I need some of each.

 

[wadcutter1]

Just shot 250 rounds in my kframe. Cylinder got so hot I could barely touch it and turn knob on speed loader! And it got too hot to touch period.
+1 for the auto


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How fast were you shooting? I'm not arguing, just genuinely curious. I generally shoot about 100 rounds in 20-30 minutes and have never had a cylinder get too hot to touch. Barrels yes, but not the cylinder.

 

[Lou_the_welder]

How fast were you shooting? I'm not arguing, just genuinely curious. I generally shoot about 100 rounds in 20-30 minutes and have never had a cylinder get too hot to touch. Barrels yes, but not the cylinder.

250 rounds? For me. Should be about 40 minutes. I've shot 600 rounds in an 1 hour 40 min? 500 rounds being the nominal per week @ 1 hour 30 min. Give or take.
All depending also; which three guns I take. Which rounds..
Pictured : loading speed blocks from safariland. Hks#10s. 38 short colts loaded with 124 gr 9mm's@ starting 9mm loads. The day it did get real hot , I took two racks of those safariland filled with 38s and finished off with 50 magnums. I wouldn't touch the barrel because i knew it was hot by then. Radiating heat. But i had to touch the cylinder to put in the speedloaders. Not wearing gloves.
If it weren't for loading blocks or moonclips; forget it. I would never be able to shoot that many rounds.
And if i do keep the model 66 around, I'd probably limit it to maybe 150 rounds.

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[Lou_the_welder]

So. We're in October getting ready for Halloween.
Wanna hear a scary story?
Imagine pulling the trigger on your revolver and the cylinder doesn't move. Then that whole,"on a semi-auto, when it jams, at least on a revolver all you gotta do is keep pulling the trigger!" Bs, nonsense is totally out the door!
Have that little pin on the hand break, that keeps the tension on that spring that keeps it forward. Whataya got? An expensive weight.
+1 for the auto
For all you goblins and ghouls out there. Have a happy Halloween!
[emoji317]

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[Rastoff]

Rastoff,

Since this was directed at me, I guess I should respond.

Reading your rant shows that you have a general disdain for anyone who practices defending themselves. That's a shame because it also shows that you know little about martial skill. So, let's start with this erroneous statement:

There's a reason martial arts are known as arts.

This can only mean that you think martial arts are something to look at and be entertained by, but have no real fighting value. While they are entertaining, don't make the mistake of thinking a practitioner isn't skilled in fighting. Look at both words:

mar·tial
adjective
-of or appropriate to war; warlike.

art
noun
-a skill at doing a specified thing, typically one acquired through practice.

Yes, art is something visual, but in this case it is the skill that is being referenced, not the visual aspect.

There are only three types of martial arts schools in the world:
Traditional/Historical
Here they teach whatever was taught 2,000 years ago whether it works or not. Their goal is preservation of the teaching and remembering their roots.

Sport
Here they teach how to fight in the ring, cage or any competition. The goal is to beat an opponent in a controlled match. They fight for points or submissions (a knock out is a kid of submission).

Self-Defense
Here they teach how to defend against an attack. In this school they look at the larger picture because on the street there are no points. Your only goal is to walk away.

Any school you walk into will contain aspects of all three, but each school will focus on one aspect more than the others. If you want to learn to defend yourself, find a school that focuses on self-defense. Learning to effectively defend yourself will involve pain. That's just a simple truth. This is why the vast majority of martial arts schools don't work on real self-defense; they'll lose students.

Yes, size matters, action is faster than reaction and the best fight is no fight. These are all concepts we teach at my school. Not all schools are the same. Maybe you just haven't met enough martial artists?



The same applies to guns. Not all are the same. Revolvers are not better than semi-autos, they're different. Thank God we have both available to us.

 

[EMP3]

I am referring to the original fights not the sanitized version today. Sorry Royce Gracie. I noticed you didn't challenge the skill statement.

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Gracie had very little skill. Muhammad Ali mastered skill.

 

[EMP3]

Rastoff,

You're desperation at defending urban legend, myth, and entertainment reveals a lack of practical knowledge.

My childhood friend (we're still friends) was heavyweight kick boxing champion of the world. He's been in movies & TV shows. He knew Chuck Norris when Chuck Norris was an unknown. He knocked out the former world champion in the 8th round with a straight right. He reverted to his boxing skills to win. He told me that when a fighter attempts a kick, he exposes himself to easy KO. You're strongest when standing on your feet at shoulder width apart.

My friend would've kicked Gracie's rear end back to Lisbon. Gracie was a Tysonesque chump. He was a huge self-promoter with very little skill.

Good street fighter will whip a martial artist every time. Street fighters don't use arts. They bring pain.

In the late 70's, when kung-fu was all the rage, a wold champ boxer, Mondo Ramos, I believe, fought the then reigning martial arts champion at Hawai'i. The first round was even. Ramos was measuring the artist. Ramos knocked him out in the 2nd.

Martial arts is an art. Boxing is brutal. Sugar Ray Leonard, Marvin Hagler, Tommy Hearns, and the Golden Boy would've knocked Gracie into the cheap seats.

But you can retain your fantasy. I'm good.

Gracie had a plan until he was hit. Taking a straight right from a professional boxer will rock your world. Hopefully you won't fall off of it.

Gracie would drop deuces in his jock strap were an EME banger to get in his face. He'd faint were a Hell's Angel to be in the same city.

I don't care what you think you know. You're lack of exposure is going to get you hurt were you foolish enough to try your choreography on an authentic bad dude. And just about all martial artists love to start fights. But they won't start fights that they know they can't win.

It a street fight, you won't be able to turn to a ref for help.

 

[EMP3]

BTW,

There is no doubt in my mind that Mayweather carried McGregor into later rounds. Mayweather could've knocked him out in the 1st round.

 

[EMP3]

One more BTW, comparing martial arts to guns is one of the most silly lines I've read. It reveals a total lack of knowledge.

 

[one eye joe]

I posted this question on a different forum & would like to include
the S&W forum in this question.

What would you want to carry for SD, a 357 in magnum revolver(6 or 7 shot) or a Glock 19 you can sub any pistol & any 357 in magnum for this discussion.

At this present time I'm going between my new & improved 686 + revolver & my G19 gen 4 &/or my G43. My G19 is by far an easier pistol to shoot with accuracy that my G43.

However, my 686 + with my new trigger job is now my first choice to carry 24/7
even though its a monster to carry. My feelings are quality always trumps quantity no matter what your weapon de jour is.

As always, all responses are welcome.

WELCOME TO THE FORUM, Doc......

I HAVE TO ROLL WITH YOU ON THIS ONE. I CARRY A PERSONALIZED M686 NO-DASH. IT WAS FITTED WITH A 7 ROUND CYLINDER AT THE FACTORY. IT HAS A "DELUXE TUNED ACTION", AND A SMOOTH RAISED TRIGGER, BY DENNIS REICHARD, OF THE SAND BURR GUN RANCH--MASSAD AYOOB'S GUNSMITH OF CHOICE. A PAIR OF REFINISHED PC MAGNAS WITH A TYLER-T, REPLACES THE COMBATS, AND COMPLETES THE PACKAGE......

ITS MY EDC. ITS SLICKER THAN SNOTS, VERY ACCURATE, AND FITS ME LIKE A GLOVE.....

 

[Tadeus67]

I think it all depends on the crime rate in your area, and how criminals "work". You are going to face 2 bad guys or a gang of 5?

My late grand father use to tell me.....if you cant fix it with 6, then you are in trouble.....He lived in the times were law abiding citizens could carry legally here in Mexico.....He usually carry a S&W model 40, a PPK or for serious bussines a Browning HP. In those days no NARCOS in México (not the way things are today). Crime rate was so low that people use to leave their front doors unlock.

Now you all now that times have changed drastically.......very sadly indeed.

While I love revolvers (a lot), I carry (With god's blessing) a Glock 42 (with extended magazines), Sometimes my Custom SIG P250 Subcompact Slide on a Compact frame, and.....my S&W model 49 rest in my safe most of the time.

Statics in Mexico show that bad guys move in packs up to 5 guys.....in this case a Revolver limits your margin for self defense.

Just my 2 cents, guys

 

[Mister X]

Rastoff,

You're desperation at defending urban legend, myth, and entertainment reveals a lack of practical knowledge.

My childhood friend (we're still friends) was heavyweight kick boxing champion of the world. He's been in movies & TV shows. He knew Chuck Norris when Chuck Norris was an unknown. He knocked out the former world champion in the 8th round with a straight right. He reverted to his boxing skills to win. He told me that when a fighter attempts a kick, he exposes himself to easy KO. You're strongest when standing on your feet at shoulder width apart.

My friend would've kicked Gracie's rear end back to Lisbon. Gracie was a Tysonesque chump. He was a huge self-promoter with very little skill.

Good street fighter will whip a martial artist every time. Street fighters don't use arts. They bring pain.

In the late 70's, when kung-fu was all the rage, a wold champ boxer, Mondo Ramos, I believe, fought the then reigning martial arts champion at Hawai'i. The first round was even. Ramos was measuring the artist. Ramos knocked him out in the 2nd.

Martial arts is an art. Boxing is brutal. Sugar Ray Leonard, Marvin Hagler, Tommy Hearns, and the Golden Boy would've knocked Gracie into the cheap seats.

But you can retain your fantasy. I'm good.

Gracie had a plan until he was hit. Taking a straight right from a professional boxer will rock your world. Hopefully you won't fall off of it.

Gracie would drop deuces in his jock strap were an EME banger to get in his face. He'd faint were a Hell's Angel to be in the same city.

I don't care what you think you know. You're lack of exposure is going to get you hurt were you foolish enough to try your choreography on an authentic bad dude. And just about all martial artists love to start fights. But they won't start fights that they know they can't win.

It a street fight, you won't be able to turn to a ref for help.

Strange thread. I'm not Rastoff, but hopefully you won't mind me responding to your post.

First off, whose your friend?

Just so you know, the Gracie's have always accepted challenges from pretty much anyone and still do AFAIK. Have you never seen the first two UFC's? Royce did fight a boxer(Art Jimmerson) and defeated him easily. Jimmerson wasn't the greatest boxer, but he had some success and experience and was the only one that showed up.There were virtually no rules in those days, definitely nothing that would have limited a boxer from applying his craft. All the big names in boxing were invited/challenged to participate those early UFC events, but all declined. They even took full page ads in numerous magazines to publically challenges the biggest names in boxing(including Tyson) and kickboxing.

The Gracie's selected Royce for the UFC not because he was the best, but because they thought by defeating much larger opponents with his slight, unathletic physique would be a better demonstration of the effectiveness of their system than if they used a more talented, muscular, athletic member of the family. I don't think Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is the end all be all like many people do by any means, but saying Royce Gracie had very little skill is ridiculous.

You have a very narrow definition of the word martial art and seem to be applying it to only certain Asian arts, which is incorrect. The origin of the word was first used to describe various European fighting systems. A good steet-fighter IS a martial artist by definition and a good martial artist, should really be a good street-fighter in my perspective. Boxing is a martial art BTW.

A boxer or kickboxer with no understanding or training of takedowns defense or ground-fighting will most likely easily be taken down and choked unconscious. That has been demonstrated countless times. And I say that as someone who was once a world-class striker. The most effective approach is definitely a well rounded one.

It's odd that you think Hell's angels are somehow elite street-fighters. One of my earliest instructors(Ray Dalke) was an ex-hells Angels. He was a legitimate bad-a** IMO, but it had nothing to do with him having been a Hells Angel.

 

[fyimo]

I carry a Sig P228 from September to May and in the summer I switch to a S&W Pre 36 5 shot revolver snub nose.