Revolvers in March 1923 Catalog

[RM Vivas]

Technically speaking, the March 1923 catalog is exclusively revolvers (and single shots on revolver frames), so this -probably- belongs here.

Recently acquired a copy of the Smith & Wesson Catalog D3 March 1923 and scanned it into my computer. Details and link below:

Document type: Catalog
Source: Smith & Wesson
Title/Description: Catalog D3 dated March 1923
Pages: 20 not including inside of front and back covers
Description: 4.5"x6" softcover held together by two staples. B&W imagery throughout. Covers heavy buff material.
Noteworthy aspects:
• Prices not listed
• Details the following arms:
o Safety Hammerless Model "New Departure" (.32 & .38)
o .32 Hand Ejector Model
o Regulation Police Model (.32 & .38)
o Military and Police (RB & SB, .32/20)
o Military (SB)
o US Army Model 1917 (SB)
o Perfected Target Model
o 22/32 Heavy Frame Target Model
• Details of sights
• Note comment on page 2 about discontinuing gold medallions

The document from which these images were made is over 75 years old and reasonably believed to be out of copyright, in the public domain and subject to Fair Use. If otherwise, please contact me and I'll address it.

www.vivasandson.com/SWCatalog-D3-March1923.pdf

 

[sheppard]

Thanks very much. The info about penetration in pine boards very interesting.

 

[nksmfamjp]

Really cool! Thank you.

 

[RM Vivas]

Thanks very much. The info about penetration in pine boards very interesting.

There was a time when the pine board penetration test was the standard for testing penetration. Quite a bit of mention of it in period literature up until the 1950's/1960's.

The variables caused issues similar to the arguments between ballistic gelatin v. ME reports crowd. The biggest was "what was the spacing between board". Apparently, that was an issue.

 

[DWalt]

There are other forums which contain areas used as repositories for ephemera associated with that area of interest. For example, the International Ammunition Association website has an area containing an extensive collection of images of ammunition catalogs and advertisements going back into the 19th Century, and it is a very valuable research tool. So why couldn't this forum have a similar area open to all for preserving historical S&W documents from the past such as product catalogs, price lists, advertising, etc.?

 

[RM Vivas]

There are other forums which contain areas used as repositories for ephemera associated with that area of interest. For example, the International Ammunition Association website has an area containing an extensive collection of images of ammunition catalogs and advertisements going back into the 19th Century, and it is a very valuable research tool. So why couldn't this forum have a similar area open to all for preserving historical S&W documents from the past such as product catalogs, price lists, advertising, etc.?

I think that as much as the SWCA is an association of S&W collectors, the idea for an online data depository is really more in the purview of the SWHF.

I however, am doing my part; I'm setting up a page on my website devoted just to documents that might be useful. 75+ year old (to avoid copyright issues) catalogs, brochures and flyers. Also whatever NYPD documents I have floating around.

HOWEVER, I can't do it alone. Everyone needs to chip in.

Got a 1938 catalog in your collection? Scan it and post it.

 

[DARE]

I have a 1941 catalog but am too dumb to scan and post. Would be happy to mail it you. Have heard they bring about $200, so would send it insured for that amount and would want you to do the same for the return.

 

[DWalt]

I am not a lawyer, but it seems that such items would fall under the "Fair Use" doctrine regardless of age, so long as they are being used for educational purposes, no one is making a profit from their use, and no harm is being inflicted on the originator. And that they may have never been legally copyrighted to begin with under applicable copyright requirements.

 

[S&W ucla]

Here is the scoop straight from the Ape

How to Post COPYRIGHTED Material

 

[AC4142]

What an awesome catalog! page 16 talks about using the new high speed 22lr ammo in their target revolvers. is that the same as today's high velocity 22lr ammo?

 

[DARE]

Wondering if the S&W catalogs were copyrighted? Don't see anything about a copyright on the 1923 catalog. Also don't see anything on my 1941 catalog. Have heard that the 1941 catalog was printed in Gun Digest.
S&W would probably consider reprints as free advertising.

 

[Muley Gil]

What an awesome catalog! page 16 talks about using the new high speed 22lr ammo in their target revolvers. is that the same as today's high velocity 22lr ammo?

Yes, but that doesn't include rounds like the CCI Stinger and the ilk.

 

[Krogen]

Thanks for posting the catalog! It's fun read. Things were definitely different nearly 100 years ago. I will admit to being somewhat . . . umm . . . "detail oriented" and I saw some interesting findings.

Page 9 describes a 5 shot .38, but shows a 6 shot cylinder. It's the same image as page 8's 6 shot .32.

Page 11 refers to "New Partridge Type Sights." I guess we can't pick on Partridge/Patridge people anymore! Even S&W used the term (a typo, I suspect). The sights don't look like Patridge sights I think of. It's clarified on page 13 with a reference to "Service Sights, Patridge Type."

Can any of you clarify the ammunition references on page 18? Listed are .22 Short and Long Rifle, .22 Ex Long and .22 NRA Long Rifle. The latter two are unknown to me.

This was definitely a fun read. I sorta wish for a time machine to go back to 1923 and experience the gun culture of the day.

 

[opoefc]

Early in our assoc's life, with Roy's help, the Factory gave the members of the S&WCA the right to use the logo on our material (business cards, stationary, letter heads, etc ) . If we asked, I'm sure we could get permission to post old catalogs & other material, if someone feels we need to document downloading old material to our Forum archives. I agree it would be a nice addition to the Form to have these old catalogs accessible on the S&WCA membership side. Don Mundell has the best collection of S&W paper that I know of. Perhaps he would be willing to provide some of it for downloading??? Ed Ed

 

[RM Vivas]

Thanks for posting the catalog! It's fun read. Things were definitely different nearly 100 years ago. I will admit to being somewhat . . . umm . . . "detail oriented" and I saw some interesting findings.

Page 9 describes a 5 shot .38, but shows a 6 shot cylinder. It's the same image as page 8's 6 shot .32.

Page 11 refers to "New Partridge Type Sights." I guess we can't pick on Partridge/Patridge people anymore! Even S&W used the term (a typo, I suspect). The sights don't look like Patridge sights I think of. It's clarified on page 13 with a reference to "Service Sights, Patridge Type."

Can any of you clarify the ammunition references on page 18? Listed are .22 Short and Long Rifle, .22 Ex Long and .22 NRA Long Rifle. The latter two are unknown to me.

This was definitely a fun read. I sorta wish for a time machine to go back to 1923 and experience the gun culture of the day.

I can see this developing into a drinking game; we all take turns critiquing catalogs and have to take a drink every time we find a major typo/errtor.

 

[RM Vivas]

Early in our assoc's life, with Roy's help, the Factory gave the members of the S&WCA the right to use the logo on our material (business cards, stationary, letter heads, etc ) . If we asked, I'm sure we could get permission to post old catalogs & other material, if someone feels we need to document downloading old material to our Forum archives. I agree it would be a nice addition to the Form to have these old catalogs accessible on the S&WCA membership side. Don Mundell has the best collection of S&W paper that I know of. Perhaps he would be willing to provide some of it for downloading??? Ed Ed

Well lets think of a wish list. Right off the bat:
Digital copy of every catalog in .pdf format
Digital copy of various price lists and press announcements in .pdf format
Digital copy of every instruction sheet in .pdf format

At the Concord show there was a fellow who had a 3 inch stack of instruction sheets for sale and my thought was that if that whole stack was digitized and posted it would be a fantastic resource. It wouldn't put a dent in the fellows sales figures because guys who have the physical gun want the physical sheet as well, not a digital copy or a xerox; thus, his rice bowl doesn't get broken and the researchers have a new resource.

I'm putting a page on my website labelled DOCUMENTS. Right now it just has that one 1923 S&W catalog but I am adding a Colt 1927, 1935 and 1941 catalog in the next couple days.

If any of you have a useful document that you can scan into a .pdf and send me for inclusion.....well, you know the email [email protected]

It's my understanding that government documents regardless of age are in the public domain, so military FM's or TM's dealing specifically with S&W's can be scanned and posted with no issues.

As I said, I'm keeping it to 75+ year old stuff for now.

 

[VaTom]

Edit: Didn't see previous posts about the pine boards
Great post. Notice in the specifications of each revolver there is a line for Penetration measured in how many 7/8" pine boards it will penetrate.

Thanks.

 

[glowe]

Let's not forget the 1923 Retail and Wholesale Price Sheets. These were typically sent along with the catalogs. Not sure if individuals got the wholesale lists or not? However, this one is addressed to an individual in Tennesee.

 

[GypsmJim]

It's amusing to see the prices. One could say wow that was pretty cheap. But it wasn't really. Grandma always spoke about Grandpa's 35 cents an hour salary in the 1920's. It would have taken two weeks to save up for a revolver back then.

My first revolver was a Ruger Security Six at 85 bucks. That was about 2 1/2 days earnings.

Maybe our current prices aren't that bad after all...

 

[RM Vivas]

It's amusing to see the prices. One could say wow that was pretty cheap. But it wasn't really. Grandma always spoke about Grandpa's 35 cents an hour salary in the 1920's. It would have taken two weeks to save up for a revolver back then.

My first revolver was a Ruger Security Six at 85 bucks. That was about 2 1/2 days earnings.

Maybe our current prices aren't that bad after all...

One of the projects I am working on right now is a graph of 4 inch blued M&P/M10 prices from 1946 onward paired up with the inflation rate and average annual income.

I have a theory that in 1946 a revolver cost x% of the average annual wage and that if you follow it through to the present you would fins that while the numbers change, the actual percentage of annual wage that the revolver costs has remained generally stable.

I can tell you that from what I've seen so far, S&W revolvers actually rose in price fairly slowly up until the 1970's when they took some very big jumps.