Robbery Scenario: What to do?

[trooper2899]

In a recent bar robbery 3am a WM with a hoodie came in displaying a weapon (it was real) and had the bar tender fork over the contents of the till...there were three customers seated on bar stools the bad guy then started going through the pockets of the patrons taking money, when he got to the third patron up close he reached to pat him down and the (73 Yr old retired cop) grabbed his gun hand and immediately shot him in the face with his rusty trusty Mod 36 Smith - he was dead before he hit the ground......Boo Hoo he was a poor local boy Heroin druggie (DOA) He probably could have walked out with the contents of the till but he got greedy, Point is let whatever happens happen but if you're carrying and they make like they're gonna go through your pockets or tell you they want to lock you in the ladies room - its time to go to war, better to die fighting than let (them) take U over.

 

[Drummer Boy]

Thanks to all the replies. What I've learned so far is: don't assume that the robber is going to take a shot at the cashier. Don't draw the weapon unless the situation escalates into a deadly situation toward myself or someone else.

PS - I probably could have saved myself, and everyone else, some time and just asked my wife the same question, in which she would probably say " don't get involved"!

 

[OKFC05]

I've never witnessed anyone being shot, and I hope that I never have to.

I have, and there are a couple of possible things you haven't considered.
1. Real life, "robber" is pulling a fraternity prank and gets shot by a third party.
2. Bystander pulls gun to stop robber, and is shot in the back by the robbers lookout.
3. Bystander rescues damsel in distress in store parking lot, damsel hops in car and leaves, bystander is arrested for armed assault on plain clothes police officer.
4. Bystander misses robber and kills another bystander

It is highly unlikely any real situation will unfold the way you picture it in advance in your mind, so a thorough knowledge of the law and realistic situational awareness are vital.

 

[jtpur]

IM Not sure you will like my answer. IF you asked me this question in a Classrom setting I would 1. Consider the question and determine If I had covered the question in class before you asked it.

2. IF I had not covered it, I would then ask you to hold the question until I covered same.

Once I covered the question/s I would say this to you, " Now that I have covered the subject I will ask you to answer the question which is, Tell ,e what the threat of deadly force is and tell me. How the threat of deadly force differs from the use of deadly force?

Give me the wrong answer and I will suggest you have no business carrying a firearm concealed or otherwise. In other words if you don't know the answer you should be unarmed until you learn the answer.

 

[federali]

It's all in the judgment and tactics

If you see one robber, expect a second. If you see two robbers, expect a third.

Don't take action when there are people behind you that you cannot identify or control.

If you issue a verbal challenge, try to do so from a position of cover.

Make sure you're not holding a weapon when police arrive.

If you shoot a robber, seek immediate medical attention for him.

Remember that the recording of your 911 call is available to lawyers of the guy you shot. Don't say anything you don't want repeated in the courtroom.

Don't chase after a robber. You move from self defense to an attempted citizens' arrest, a very shaky area of law.

Don't make citizens' arrest.

You are responsible for innocent bystanders you may accidentally injure.

I could go on and on.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

(3) The attacker you see may not be the only one present. He may have an accomplice already in the store, and he may have an accomplice outside, potentially with even heavier artillery.

So I would intervene only if the danger was truly imminent. Ideally when the muzzle isn't covering anybody. And I would absolutely act if he told everyone to get in the back room or something, as that's a prelude to execution.

Read and heed.

 

[TexasArmed]

I was just wondering what to do if ever faced with this scenario: I'm in the local convenience store, buying a candy bar, and in walks a dude in a hoodie & points a gun at the cashier, demanding money. As a CCH holder, what do I do? Is this already considered a deadly situation, with the cashier at gun point? Do I draw my pistol and shout " drop the gun, I will shoot you". I know that there are probably different circumstances that could determine how I react. For example, if there are bystanders in the line of fire. That would certainly change things.

I know there's no way of knowing what's going on in the robbers head. What if he's bluffing, and just wants to take the money & run. What if he's going to shoot the cashier, regardless. What if draw my pistol, shout a warning, and the robber shoots the cashier anyway? I know there's LEOs on this forum. As a CCH holder, what should I, or shouldn't I do? I want to do whats right, not do something that would make a bad situation worse! Any advice is much appreciated.

I think it depends on the State your in. If i have a clear shot
i would take the shot to take him out because he might kill the clerk then turn around and kill any witnesses. I would rather
act while I have the advantage, rather than to outdraw him once he dispatched the clerk and turned on witnesses.
Armed robbery in Texas is a serious crime and justifies the
use of deadly force to stop the felony in process.

 

[josywales]

I slept at a Holiday Inn last night and believe you are allowed to retaliate with the same force that the "victim" would be permitted, under the law. So, know what those laws are, properly interpret the situation (like, it's not the cashier's friend playing a prank), and act accordingly. Fact is, even if he's playing a prank, and you react within the boundaries of the law, you'd still be ok. Now, let's define ok.

Geography will play a huge part in how this plays out, but here goes:

In our justice system, you are presumed innocent until proven guilty.

When someone is shot to death, it's presumed murder, until proven otherwise (perhaps not officially, but that's how most LEOs operate. And I'm not knocking them for it).

The fact is, there's a dead body and someone will have to answer for that. In this scenario, it's you. You murdered this man and the police and the DA will want to know why, as will his family, but we'll get to that later.

So, a young officer shows up, anxious to get his first collar, and he asks you what happened? You say, this guy came in with a gun, threatened the cashier and I shot him. "click" the cuffs are on and the odyssey begins. Hopefully, the DA and the police (video tape) agree with your version. And they both must agree. Of course, by this time, you might/should already have contacted your lawyer. In fact, the best answer to the officer's question is: this guy came in with a gun, threatened the cashier and now he's dead. Officer: "Well, who shot him?" You: "I'd like to call my lawyer."

Assuming you make it through the legal gauntlet, that's when the fun really begins. See, the guy you justifiably shot, had a family and their primary form of support is laying in the morgue, someone will have to answer for that. In civil court, the rules are much different and you could find yourself on the wrong end of that. Heck, the "victim" could have been the guy's wife and they planned the robbery together, but you messed it up by killing him.

No, I don't write crime novels, but the fact is that once you discharge a firearm, right or wrong, you could spend $75,000 or more digging your way out of that mess. I don't care if you shot the guy in your bedroom. With the wrong DA, and our civil court system, you could be in a world of hurt.

For me:

Plan A - evade and escape whenever possible.

Only fire when there is absolutely no other alternative to protect myself or others. YMMV

 

[Wee Hooker]

I was just wondering what to do if ever faced with this scenario: I'm in the local convenience store, buying a candy bar, and in walks a dude in a hoodie & points a gun at the cashier, demanding money.

Any advice is much appreciated.

So lets take this thought process a step further.
What kind of gun does he point at the cashier? An old 25 Raven or a 12 ga pump shotgun?

Then, what are you carrying? A .22 mag derrenger or a FS M&P 45 w 11 hollow points?

Legalities aside, you need to assess your ( and that of others you've now committed) chance of survival if things go south.

 

[trooper2899]

If you're carrying a gun its a good practice to make a habit of pondering " what if " gun scenarios that could possibly occur, Do not expect people to follow your commands....street wise scum bags know when you can shoot them, I have seen them try to surround a uniform cop and say "What'sha gonna do man Shoot me ?

 

[jimmyj]

Step 1. seek cover
Step 2. Become invisible behind cover
3. Do not move or make any heroic moves.
4. If BG takes money and exits building =let him/her go.
5. If BG starts to hurt people-do what you have to do to protect yourself.
6. If necessary- change diaper.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

Some good answers above, some not so great. Some really bad. I like joseywales reply for the most part, although it's a little overly dramatic.

Knowing the rules of your jurisdiction is always important but in most cases in these 50 states the rules of self defense and defense of another are very much the same.

Naturally, where you are is very important because defending someone during an armed robbery in Tulsa, Oklahoma will generate a different reaction from the police than defending someone in a similar situation in Brooklyn, NY. This assumes your gun is legally carried in both such places, etc; let's not get into that issue.

The use of deadly force is only justified if you believe that you are in danger of being killed or seriously injured or that the same is true of someone else. The problem jurisdictionally is that such behavior is looked down upon, say, in Chicago, and is deemed praiseworthy in, say, Abilene. Even if the rules are the same, more or less, the police and the prosecutors have a very different mindset in these disparate jurisdictions.

Having said that, remembering that you do not have a duty to do anything is equally important.

Having said that, let me note that if you are ever so unfortunate to be in such a situation pulling your gun is very risky business because, as you describe it, you are in the perpetrator's line of fire. So avoiding his attention is very important. So, if you perceive the threat as deadly you are either going to step out of the line of fire, obtaining concealment, hopefully, and prepare to defend yourself if necessary or you're shooting. What you're not doing is having a discussion, meaning you don't shout freeze or anything like that. It's not required and only causes the gunman to focus on you. That is exactly what you do not want to happen.

Or, to paraphrase one of my favorite movie lines, if you're going to shoot, shoot; don't talk.

Except in very unusual circumstances, more fictional than real, the perp is not going to be in cahoots with the clerk. Nonetheless, you are going to be in a firestorm of questions from the authorities and you will have to justify your behavior. When I teach a license to carry handgun class I make it perfectly clear that the only thing you tell police is "I thought he was going to kill me (or him/her)" and then ask for an attorney.

But DO REMEMBER to re-holster your own weapon, or put it down, before the police arrive. Don't be mistaken for the bad guy.

I hope this clarifies some things for you.

 

[Ron M.]

On my way to work one morning in Sunnyvale, CA, about 4:30 a.m., I turned the corner to stop by the local 7-11 for my usual coffee and doughnut...my car stalled on me while I turned (bad carburetor). Got it started and continued on. When I parked and walked up to the front door, a guy ran out past me. Didn't give him a second look...walked in to find customers on the floor, the cash register open and empty. Stayed for the police to point out the direction of the robbery suspect. Couldn't provide more info than that...except I am glad that lousy Dodge Dart carburetor failed on me that morning...if I had walked in during the actual robbery, I might have been a casualty...and that happened over 25 years ago...will never forget it. If I had been armed? Would never have taken a shot...I ain't that good an aim, and in CA, I would have been arrested...even back then. Better to stay out of situations that can turn against you in a court of law.

 

[josywales]

Some good answers above, some not so great. Some really bad. I like joseywales reply for the most part, although it's a little overly dramatic.

I gotta have some fun!

Having said that, remembering that you do not have a duty to do anything is equally important.

Not true. Jerry, Elaine, George, and Kramer were all prosecuted under the Good Samaritan Law...

Or, to paraphrase one of my favorite movie lines, if you're going to shoot, shoot; don't talk.

Yes and you must be willing: "I found most men aren't willing, they bat an eye, or draw a breath before they shoot. I won't." You all know that one

But DO REMEMBER to re-holster your own weapon, or put it down, before the police arrive. Don't be mistaken for the bad guy.

The Lt teaching our class many years ago took it a step further. He said to empty and clear the weapon, then place it on a table. He'd seen too many officers who didn't know how to clear a 1911, or whatever, and rounds end up in the ceiling. Just repeating what he said. He was a club member and knew his stuff. He was in a shootout in a grocery store. The guy had an AK. Police fired hundreds of rounds. 3 rounds hit their target and all from his gun. Funny guy to boot.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

joseywales, yer killin' me......

Not true. Jerry, Elaine, George, and Kramer were all prosecuted under the Good Samaritan Law...

Please do not think I'm a total dunce but.........to quote Paul Newman in Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.....

Who are those guys?

And how do you get prosecuted under a Good Samaritan law that is designed to protect people who come to the aid of others, not prosecute them if they don't.

HELP ME OUT HERE JOSEYWALES!!!!

 

[flip flappy]

I live in the country and my neighbor, JR, has a barber shop that stays open till around 11 PM from Thursday through Saturday. He has a group of men that hang out and chat in the evenings and he is always CC. One evening a guy rushes in the shop with a large revolver and orders everyone to the floor. He is aggressive and makes several threats with strong language. JR is retired from the prison and knows how to read people. He told me that he never once even considered going for his pistol and was praying no one else would go for their's. I know there are times a person needs to act in self defense but this was not one of them. The robber had the drop on everyone. The situation ended with the robber exiting and no one hurt. He was never caught.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

Yes and you must be willing: "I found most men aren't willing, they bat an eye, or draw a breath before they shoot. I won't." You all know that one

This is the very spectacular difference between most good guys and the bad guys; hesitation.

So I try to remember what my drill sergeant told me in bayonet basic training many moons ago:

1. There are only two kinds of bayonet fighters. The quick and the dead.
2. Never mind item two.....it's not something I want to say in a public forum - it's not that it's not clean, it's definitely normative English that the moderators will allow, it's just a special mindset teaching tool and I'm never sure if it's something the average good guy can handle. So, if you're a veteran of US Army basic training, you know what it is......let's just say that hesitation can get you killed.....

 

[josywales]

joseywales, yer killin' me......



Please do not think I'm a total dunce but.........to quote Paul Newman in Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.....

Who are those guys?

And how do you get prosecuted under a Good Samaritan law that is designed to protect people who come to the aid of others, not prosecute them if they don't.

HELP ME OUT HERE JOSEYWALES!!!!

Seinfeld! The final episodes. The group watched, as a very overweight fellow got robbed and they did nothing. The last episode, just about every character that was every on the show testified against them and they all went to jail!

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Seinfeld! The final episodes. The group watched, as a very overweight fellow got robbed and they did nothing. The last episode, just about every character that was every on the show testified against them and they all went to jail!

This is a continuation of a comment that may have been intended to be humorous. If not, it should be noted that they did NOT go to jail. It was a TV show. There was no particular concern for realistic legal detail. In my limited experience, it didn't have much concern for humor, either.

 

[Rpg]

To expand my initial comment:

Are you willing to shoot this purported bad guy in the head? If you genuinely believe he's going to shoot the cashier, that's your option to prevent it.

Do you have the skill to do that?

Warning the bad guy (shouting something first) just alerts the bad guy, and is a really bad idea.

If you shout your warning, the bad guy should shoot the clerk before turning to you. (That's the right move for him).

Is that OK? Hope you have a good lawyer and lots of money for the lawyer. I'm happy to take your money, but wouldn't anticipate a good result for you in criminal or civil court. Welcome to years of litigation and giving every dime you have, or ever will have , to your lawyer. They'll earn every dime.

Are you quick enough to draw and hit your target (bad guy's head) before he shoots you?


Are you willing and able to draw and hit the bad guy in the head before he (maybe) shoots the clerk? I suspect OP's skill wouldn't meet this requirement since he doesn't seem to have much training.

What about the BG's buddies? Have you determined there are none or do you think you are able to hit them all?

What, in this scenario, creates an imminent danger to you or anyone you have a legal right to protect?

Welcome to court.

OP has more to consider than he or she thinks.

Being a 'hero' has lots of costs.

OP isn't the Lone Ranger who rides off into the sunset after straightening out the situation .

He's stuck with the consequences.

Judge Learned Hand once said that the only things worse than being a litigant was 'serious illness or death'

He was right.