Robbery Scenario: What to do?

Some good answers above, some not so great. Some really bad. I like joseywales reply for the most part, although it's a little overly dramatic.

Knowing the rules of your jurisdiction is always important but in most cases in these 50 states the rules of self defense and defense of another are very much the same.

Naturally, where you are is very important because defending someone during an armed robbery in Tulsa, Oklahoma will generate a different reaction from the police than defending someone in a similar situation in Brooklyn, NY. This assumes your gun is legally carried in both such places, etc; let's not get into that issue.

The use of deadly force is only justified if you believe that you are in danger of being killed or seriously injured or that the same is true of someone else. The problem jurisdictionally is that such behavior is looked down upon, say, in Chicago, and is deemed praiseworthy in, say, Abilene. Even if the rules are the same, more or less, the police and the prosecutors have a very different mindset in these disparate jurisdictions.

Having said that, remembering that you do not have a duty to do anything is equally important.

Having said that, let me note that if you are ever so unfortunate to be in such a situation pulling your gun is very risky business because, as you describe it, you are in the perpetrator's line of fire. So avoiding his attention is very important. So, if you perceive the threat as deadly you are either going to step out of the line of fire, obtaining concealment, hopefully, and prepare to defend yourself if necessary or you're shooting. What you're not doing is having a discussion, meaning you don't shout freeze or anything like that. It's not required and only causes the gunman to focus on you. That is exactly what you do not want to happen.

Or, to paraphrase one of my favorite movie lines, if you're going to shoot, shoot; don't talk.

Except in very unusual circumstances, more fictional than real, the perp is not going to be in cahoots with the clerk. Nonetheless, you are going to be in a firestorm of questions from the authorities and you will have to justify your behavior. When I teach a license to carry handgun class I make it perfectly clear that the only thing you tell police is "I thought he was going to kill me (or him/her)" and then ask for an attorney.

But DO REMEMBER to re-holster your own weapon, or put it down, before the police arrive. Don't be mistaken for the bad guy.

I hope this clarifies some things for you.
 
On my way to work one morning in Sunnyvale, CA, about 4:30 a.m., I turned the corner to stop by the local 7-11 for my usual coffee and doughnut...my car stalled on me while I turned (bad carburetor). Got it started and continued on. When I parked and walked up to the front door, a guy ran out past me. Didn't give him a second look...walked in to find customers on the floor, the cash register open and empty. Stayed for the police to point out the direction of the robbery suspect. Couldn't provide more info than that...except I am glad that lousy Dodge Dart carburetor failed on me that morning...if I had walked in during the actual robbery, I might have been a casualty...and that happened over 25 years ago...will never forget it. If I had been armed? Would never have taken a shot...I ain't that good an aim, and in CA, I would have been arrested...even back then. Better to stay out of situations that can turn against you in a court of law.
 
Some good answers above, some not so great. Some really bad. I like joseywales reply for the most part, although it's a little overly dramatic.

I gotta have some fun!



Having said that, remembering that you do not have a duty to do anything is equally important.

Not true. Jerry, Elaine, George, and Kramer were all prosecuted under the Good Samaritan Law...

Or, to paraphrase one of my favorite movie lines, if you're going to shoot, shoot; don't talk.

Yes and you must be willing: "I found most men aren't willing, they bat an eye, or draw a breath before they shoot. I won't." You all know that one


But DO REMEMBER to re-holster your own weapon, or put it down, before the police arrive. Don't be mistaken for the bad guy.

The Lt teaching our class many years ago took it a step further. He said to empty and clear the weapon, then place it on a table. He'd seen too many officers who didn't know how to clear a 1911, or whatever, and rounds end up in the ceiling. Just repeating what he said. He was a club member and knew his stuff. He was in a shootout in a grocery store. The guy had an AK. Police fired hundreds of rounds. 3 rounds hit their target and all from his gun. Funny guy to boot.
 
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joseywales, yer killin' me......

ISCS Yoda View Post Having said that said:
Not true. Jerry, Elaine, George, and Kramer were all prosecuted under the Good Samaritan Law...

Please do not think I'm a total dunce but.........to quote Paul Newman in Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.....

Who are those guys?

And how do you get prosecuted under a Good Samaritan law that is designed to protect people who come to the aid of others, not prosecute them if they don't.

HELP ME OUT HERE JOSEYWALES!!!!
 
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I live in the country and my neighbor, JR, has a barber shop that stays open till around 11 PM from Thursday through Saturday. He has a group of men that hang out and chat in the evenings and he is always CC. One evening a guy rushes in the shop with a large revolver and orders everyone to the floor. He is aggressive and makes several threats with strong language. JR is retired from the prison and knows how to read people. He told me that he never once even considered going for his pistol and was praying no one else would go for their's. I know there are times a person needs to act in self defense but this was not one of them. The robber had the drop on everyone. The situation ended with the robber exiting and no one hurt. He was never caught.
 
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Yes and you must be willing: "I found most men aren't willing, they bat an eye, or draw a breath before they shoot. I won't." You all know that one

This is the very spectacular difference between most good guys and the bad guys; hesitation.

So I try to remember what my drill sergeant told me in bayonet basic training many moons ago:

1. There are only two kinds of bayonet fighters. The quick and the dead.
2. Never mind item two.....it's not something I want to say in a public forum - it's not that it's not clean, it's definitely normative English that the moderators will allow, it's just a special mindset teaching tool and I'm never sure if it's something the average good guy can handle. So, if you're a veteran of US Army basic training, you know what it is......let's just say that hesitation can get you killed.....
 
joseywales, yer killin' me......



Please do not think I'm a total dunce but.........to quote Paul Newman in Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.....

Who are those guys?

And how do you get prosecuted under a Good Samaritan law that is designed to protect people who come to the aid of others, not prosecute them if they don't.

HELP ME OUT HERE JOSEYWALES!!!!

Seinfeld! The final episodes. The group watched, as a very overweight fellow got robbed and they did nothing. The last episode, just about every character that was every on the show testified against them and they all went to jail!
 
Seinfeld! The final episodes. The group watched, as a very overweight fellow got robbed and they did nothing. The last episode, just about every character that was every on the show testified against them and they all went to jail!
This is a continuation of a comment that may have been intended to be humorous. If not, it should be noted that they did NOT go to jail. It was a TV show. There was no particular concern for realistic legal detail. In my limited experience, it didn't have much concern for humor, either.
 
To expand my initial comment:

Are you willing to shoot this purported bad guy in the head? If you genuinely believe he's going to shoot the cashier, that's your option to prevent it.

Do you have the skill to do that?

Warning the bad guy (shouting something first) just alerts the bad guy, and is a really bad idea.

If you shout your warning, the bad guy should shoot the clerk before turning to you. (That's the right move for him).

Is that OK? Hope you have a good lawyer and lots of money for the lawyer. I'm happy to take your money, but wouldn't anticipate a good result for you in criminal or civil court. Welcome to years of litigation and giving every dime you have, or ever will have , to your lawyer. They'll earn every dime.

Are you quick enough to draw and hit your target (bad guy's head) before he shoots you?


Are you willing and able to draw and hit the bad guy in the head before he (maybe) shoots the clerk? I suspect OP's skill wouldn't meet this requirement since he doesn't seem to have much training.

What about the BG's buddies? Have you determined there are none or do you think you are able to hit them all?

What, in this scenario, creates an imminent danger to you or anyone you have a legal right to protect?

Welcome to court.

OP has more to consider than he or she thinks.

Being a 'hero' has lots of costs.

OP isn't the Lone Ranger who rides off into the sunset after straightening out the situation .

He's stuck with the consequences.

Judge Learned Hand once said that the only things worse than being a litigant was 'serious illness or death'

He was right.
 
This scenario's a well traveled road. Say you decide to intervene, and get the drop on Mr. Bad Guy. Instead of complying, Mr. BG decides he likes his chances, opens up on you. Now everyone in the store and passing by on the street is in play. Mr. BG doesn't care, he's been inside before most likely, but you, every round in your mag/cylinder has a lawyer attached. No matter how good your intentions, you hit a kid coming in to buy a Slurpee, it's your keister. Add to that, the responding police won't know which of you is the bad guy. Do yourself a favor, unless he starts shooting, be a good witness. If all Mr. Bg wants is the money, let him go. The store's insured.
 
To expand my initial comment:

Are you willing to shoot this purported bad guy in the head? If you genuinely believe he's going to shoot the cashier, that's your option to prevent it.

Do you have the skill to do that?

Warning the bad guy (shouting something first) just alerts the bad guy, and is a really bad idea.

If you shout your warning, the bad guy should shoot the clerk before turning to you. (That's the right move for him).

Is that OK? Hope you have a good lawyer and lots of money for the lawyer. I'm happy to take your money, but wouldn't anticipate a good result for you in criminal or civil court. Welcome to years of litigation and giving every dime you have, or ever will have , to your lawyer. They'll earn every dime.

Are you quick enough to draw and hit your target (bad guy's head) before he shoots you?


Are you willing and able to draw and hit the bad guy in the head before he (maybe) shoots the clerk? I suspect OP's skill wouldn't meet this requirement since he doesn't seem to have much training.

What about the BG's buddies? Have you determined there are none or do you think you are able to hit them all?

What, in this scenario, creates an imminent danger to you or anyone you have a legal right to protect?

Welcome to court.

OP has more to consider than he or she thinks.

Being a 'hero' has lots of costs.

OP isn't the Lone Ranger who rides off into the sunset after straightening out the situation .

He's stuck with the consequences.

Judge Learned Hand once said that the only things worse than being a litigant was 'serious illness or death'

He was right.

Thanks for the input. You have given me a lot of things to consider that I didn't think about. Sorry for sounding cocky in earlier post, that wasn't my initial intention.(had a bad day) I do appreciate a lawyers point of view. You're absolutely right about me not having enough skill for a head shot, and I'm not foolish enough to think so. I'd be lucky to get a center of mass shot, if the situation escalated to require deadly force. Based on your information (and the majority of others) it would be best to not get involved. Being a hero is definitely not something I'm shooting for! (pun intended) A lot of hero's wind up dead!
 
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your not a LEO and are not expected to act as one .. if you are not in fear for your life or the life of another and the BG is not violent be a good witness and have good eyes to give the investigating LEO's reliable info on the suspect's description !!

If BG is violent in any way or makes everyone move to another area or room it's time to act ..

I would never give a BG a warning to drop his weapon .. it could well get you killed or someone else if they were to open fire at your command to drop the weapon .. especially if there are more then one BG's .. there is nothing fair in a gun fight .. It is your objective to survive at all cost and at that point to stop the BG !!
 
"When you have to shoot, shoot...don't talk". Tuco

Hmmmm, sums it up for me.
 
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your not a LEO and are not expected to act as one .. if you are not in fear for your life or the life of another and the BG is not violent be a good witness and have good eyes to give the investigating LEO's reliable info on the suspect's description !!

If BG is violent in any way or makes everyone move to another area or room it's time to act ..

I would never give a BG a warning to drop his weapon .. it could well get you killed or someone else if they were to open fire at your command to drop the weapon .. especially if there are more then one BG's .. there is nothing fair in a gun fight .. It is your objective to survive at all cost and at that point to stop the BG !!

If he comes in with a gun pointed at a clerk he is violent.
If i were not willing to take the shot, i would not carry a gun at
that point. I don't like trying to outdraw someone who already
has a gun pointed at me. Once he draws the gun and points
it at a human, he is in the act of committing a felony. While
i am not the law, i don't intend to give him a chance to take
a shot at me if i can help it.
 
I'm not a cop nor expected to act like one.(Been CCW since early 70s and gave this a lot of thought!) I would do my best to get out of the line of fire. Then I would get a good look at the perp to help the cops in the ensuing investigation to follow.

If by some chance the crook fired and hit someone at that point if I was in a reasonably safe position and others were out of the line of fire I would do what had to be done.

Outstanding,..... be a great witness. UNLESS, your life or anothers is in imminent danger.
 
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Your default solution should be to be invisable during, and witness afterwards. Unless and until the situation turns specifically deadly.

I will present the SOPs that were used at a liquor store back in the old neighborhood that had frequent robberies.

All the employees were encouraged to be armed, not just the specific register guy. As long as the robber was mostly coherent, hand over the money in the register, and let him go. They practiced good cash control, made frequent drops into drop safe, and would only have a few hundred in the register at any time.

But IF :
1. The robber was noticeably high and unpredictable.
2. Robber(s) would endevor to herd people into back room.
3. Robber initiated an attack.

Then everyone would go into OK Corral mode.

One occasion my friend wasn't carrying his usual 2.5in Python when a robber came over the counter at him. He used his Gerber Mk I knife to cut threw the gun arm down to the bone.
 
This is not the best thing to discuss on a public forum as it becomes part of a searchable public record. Things you say could be used against you. Talk to your local police. Keep it off the record.
 
I posted early in this thread. Years back (mid 1970s) I was one of the first civilian instructors for the new Pistol permit pre issue class started & now required by our new county judge. All civilian pistol permit instructors were NRA firearm instructors.

We had to make up a curriculum and get it approved by the judge.

Judge was anti gun, (most all officials in that NYS county were & still are) but he said do a good course and he would sign permits. Note in NYS you need a hard to get permit just to own/posses a hand gun even in your own home!:(

One of the things I told my students WHEN you got your permit you had a permit to own/posses not fire it. Most understood the point I was trying to get across. The course at that time was 3 hours and we covered a lot!
 
When I worked nights in the gas station I carried a 357 Python, two co workers carried m29/44's another carried a 38 special. It wasn't a good time to get robbed for the bad guy. This was in the mid seventies.
 
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Man, you old timers. Clerkin' the local Get-In-Get-Out or the liquor store, and you guys are buyin' Pythons and walkin' around with 'em.

I couldn't afford a damn Python when I was clerkin', you lucky old so-and-so's! :D
 
I would just say that if you shoot someone, hopefully justified, it is going to shake your world and change your life forever.
Even if justified, it will change your life, especially if you take someone's life. It bothers most sane people to do that.
Probably the only thing worse would be to die yourself or another innocent person.
Myself, I would do all I could to avoid having to do that, but am ready if necessary.
I constantly remind myself to be committed to both courses of action, and no, they are not in conflict with each other.
You just need to recognize where that line is and not hesitate if its crossed but do all I can to keep that from happening.
You're on the right track thinking about it.
Keep that up and keep training.
 
I would just say that if you shoot someone, hopefully justified, it is going to shake your world and change your life forever.
Even if justified, it will change your life, especially if you take someone's life. It bothers most sane people to do that.
Probably the only thing worse would be to die yourself or another innocent person.
Myself, I would do all I could to avoid having to do that, but am ready if necessary.
I constantly remind myself to be committed to both courses of action, and no, they are not in conflict with each other.
You just need to recognize where that line is and not hesitate if its crossed but do all I can to keep that from happening.
You're on the right track thinking about it.
Keep that up and keep training.

I agree 100%! My CCH instructor told our class that no matter what the case may be, shooting and possibly killing another human being will haunt you. Maybe for the rest of your life! He said that he's had fellow officers to struggle with having to shoot someone, and that's part of their job & training!

I think the only way a sane person could do it is to realize that he/she or someone else is gonna die, if the trigger isn't pulled. It would have to be a quick (hopefully) survival instinct.
 

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