S&W #3 38-40 Target
- Thread starter Shrapnel
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Jim Watson
Member
Wow.
If you believe the tag and have a letter, I don't know what more is to be found.
If you believe the tag and have a letter, I don't know what more is to be found.
Well, if Dr. "Jenks" said that only 15 were made, you can take that to the bank. The New Model 3 was produced in just about every caliber that would fit in a revolver cylinder from 1878 to 1912. The highest serial number was 35,796. There were 14 calibers listed in Neal & Jinks book and, oddly enough, the 38-40 was not one of them. What does the letter show as a ship date?
One note about the New Model 3 Target revolver is that they were arguably the most accurate revolver of the era. Admired and owned by just about every "sharpshooter" around. I believe most competition guns were in 44 Russian caliber.
Image of John and Sumner Paine at the 1896 Olympics. Sumner with Colt and John with S&W NM3.
One note about the New Model 3 Target revolver is that they were arguably the most accurate revolver of the era. Admired and owned by just about every "sharpshooter" around. I believe most competition guns were in 44 Russian caliber.
Image of John and Sumner Paine at the 1896 Olympics. Sumner with Colt and John with S&W NM3.
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deadin
US Veteran
The 38/40 was one I needed when I was collecting revolvers in different chamberings. (among a few others)
I had my hands on one once, but couldn't talk the owner (Stan Larson, RIP) out of it at any price I could afford.....
I had my hands on one once, but couldn't talk the owner (Stan Larson, RIP) out of it at any price I could afford.....
This is the letter, I find it quite interesting, as I am a fan of the 38-40 more than the revolver, but this makes it the best of both worlds…
Boulder350
Member
Nice revolver! The tag on the gun said it went back to the factory for a rebuild in 1915. Is there a date stamp on the frame under the grips?
Yes, there is a date stamp and a * by the serial number…
Caliber stamp
It is possible that this rare example was caliber altered when it went back to the factory. I have a 38WCF DA that was manufactured between 1900-1910 that has the caliber stamp on the left side barrel and also the logo on the frame.
This gun was shipped in 1906 I can't understand why it doesn't have a caliber stamp on the barrel. In 1906 the factory would have been well versed at the 38 WCF caliber and also had DA barrels in stock in 38/40 that fit the SA frame perfectly. The factory made 276 DA revolvers in 38 WCF so parts were readily available when this gun shipped.
Please post a photo of your barrel address.
Murph
It is possible that this rare example was caliber altered when it went back to the factory. I have a 38WCF DA that was manufactured between 1900-1910 that has the caliber stamp on the left side barrel and also the logo on the frame.
This gun was shipped in 1906 I can't understand why it doesn't have a caliber stamp on the barrel. In 1906 the factory would have been well versed at the 38 WCF caliber and also had DA barrels in stock in 38/40 that fit the SA frame perfectly. The factory made 276 DA revolvers in 38 WCF so parts were readily available when this gun shipped.
Please post a photo of your barrel address.
Murph
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My letter ends with, "Sorry we cannot solve the mystery."----as of November 18, 2015.
The letter is for a "New Model No. 3 Target" (#3914)---shipped October 25, 1902.
The mystery was basically WHAT'S UP WITH THIS?!!! (THIS being the caliber----which they could not confirm---damn it anyhow!!) Yet another example of the old saying "Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes the bear eats you!"
THIS is a NM #3 Target with "38 WINCHESTER CTG" stamped on the barrel. As an aside, I recall one of the books speaking of the run of 15---probably N&J, and given they could not solve the mystery, I figure mine wasn't one of them. (??)
Moving on-----as re mine wasn't one of them: The letter notes, "There are no notes in the records on this revolver. It appears to have been a special order for one unit and the revolvers in this serial range are all .38-44 Smith & Wesson cartridge revolver."
As another aside, David Carroll remarked, "This is the only one I've ever held in my hands---I've heard of one or two others."
David sold mine during the liquidation of my collection during the last 3++ years for $6,500.
It'd been at least a little more interesting if it'd been shipped to a somebody, rather than Iver Johnson Sporting Goods Co.
That's all there is----there ain't no more!
Ralph Tremaine
The letter is for a "New Model No. 3 Target" (#3914)---shipped October 25, 1902.
The mystery was basically WHAT'S UP WITH THIS?!!! (THIS being the caliber----which they could not confirm---damn it anyhow!!) Yet another example of the old saying "Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes the bear eats you!"
THIS is a NM #3 Target with "38 WINCHESTER CTG" stamped on the barrel. As an aside, I recall one of the books speaking of the run of 15---probably N&J, and given they could not solve the mystery, I figure mine wasn't one of them. (??)
Moving on-----as re mine wasn't one of them: The letter notes, "There are no notes in the records on this revolver. It appears to have been a special order for one unit and the revolvers in this serial range are all .38-44 Smith & Wesson cartridge revolver."
As another aside, David Carroll remarked, "This is the only one I've ever held in my hands---I've heard of one or two others."
David sold mine during the liquidation of my collection during the last 3++ years for $6,500.
It'd been at least a little more interesting if it'd been shipped to a somebody, rather than Iver Johnson Sporting Goods Co.
That's all there is----there ain't no more!
Ralph Tremaine
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Boulder350
Member
Shrapnel, Is there a serial number on the latch and a serial number on the barrel? Sometimes they did not stamp all areas with the serial number on special order guns or returns to the factory.
Where did you get that number?
Caliber stamped?
It's amazing also that this gun went back to the factory 9 years after it was shipped.
I have a 32DA model 4 that went back to the factory in the 1920's and the factory replaced the barrel with a Pre-1902 barrel lacking caliber stamp. My 32 has all matching numbers but this proves the factory would use older barrels for refurbishing guns. It also proves the factory refurbished guns did not follow standard production procedures or the barrel would have been caliber stamped.
Murph
It's amazing also that this gun went back to the factory 9 years after it was shipped.
I have a 32DA model 4 that went back to the factory in the 1920's and the factory replaced the barrel with a Pre-1902 barrel lacking caliber stamp. My 32 has all matching numbers but this proves the factory would use older barrels for refurbishing guns. It also proves the factory refurbished guns did not follow standard production procedures or the barrel would have been caliber stamped.
Murph
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There is a matching serial number on the latch and the caliber stamp of 38 Winchester on the barrel…
There was a matching serial number on my latch/sight too---and it came close to going away---thanks to a REALLY bone-head move!!
The gun was ALL apart from its welcome bath---and going back together. Some knot-head who shall remain nameless to protect the guilty, put the latch in place---and closed the barrel---the latch only----no sight carrier (!!!)
We digress at this point to discuss some aspects of these things nobody in their right mind bothers with. The other folks, those from the lunatic fringe, think they're interesting---if not important.
The original S&W latch/target sight assembly started life as a plain, everyday latch. After not much head scratching, an inventive soul milled a slot in it from one end to the other---and milled a notch at the back end (to hold the sight carrier). Now this slot SEVERELY weakened the tang which runs forward, and bears against the barrel catch cam----which bears against a STOUT little spring-----STOUT!! As scary as this might sound at this point, it's of no moment, because the sight carrier has its own tang which fits quite nicely in the slot----and makes everything strong again.
When the barrel was closed, the latch tangs (two where there used to be one, and where there should now be three) made contact with the barrel catch cam (AND its STOUT little spring), and were unable to cope with the load. So they bent. They didn't bend very much before they went SNAP!! They went SNAP because the steel they're made from is steel in name only---same as the rest of the gun.
All this was followed by a series of bad words----followed by "Now what?!!"
"Now what?!!" was followed by a search for a WIZARD gunsmith---ending with Chris Hirsch, who said, "I know I can fix it.". This was preceded by a host of others who said, "I don't know if I can fix it or not---but I'd sure like to try."
The next step was to create a fall-back position---just in case. George Dye to the rescue! He came up with a latch/sight assembly that looked like it had come from S&W's Parts Department---Praise be to Allah!!
Off goes the barrel and busted latch to Sugar Land, Texas. Back it comes in a matter of days-----fixed! It was not only fixed, you can't even tell where it was fixed---even if I showed you where to look!
Like I said---a WIZARD gunsmith!!
Ralph Tremaine
The gun was ALL apart from its welcome bath---and going back together. Some knot-head who shall remain nameless to protect the guilty, put the latch in place---and closed the barrel---the latch only----no sight carrier (!!!)
We digress at this point to discuss some aspects of these things nobody in their right mind bothers with. The other folks, those from the lunatic fringe, think they're interesting---if not important.
The original S&W latch/target sight assembly started life as a plain, everyday latch. After not much head scratching, an inventive soul milled a slot in it from one end to the other---and milled a notch at the back end (to hold the sight carrier). Now this slot SEVERELY weakened the tang which runs forward, and bears against the barrel catch cam----which bears against a STOUT little spring-----STOUT!! As scary as this might sound at this point, it's of no moment, because the sight carrier has its own tang which fits quite nicely in the slot----and makes everything strong again.
When the barrel was closed, the latch tangs (two where there used to be one, and where there should now be three) made contact with the barrel catch cam (AND its STOUT little spring), and were unable to cope with the load. So they bent. They didn't bend very much before they went SNAP!! They went SNAP because the steel they're made from is steel in name only---same as the rest of the gun.
All this was followed by a series of bad words----followed by "Now what?!!"
"Now what?!!" was followed by a search for a WIZARD gunsmith---ending with Chris Hirsch, who said, "I know I can fix it.". This was preceded by a host of others who said, "I don't know if I can fix it or not---but I'd sure like to try."
The next step was to create a fall-back position---just in case. George Dye to the rescue! He came up with a latch/sight assembly that looked like it had come from S&W's Parts Department---Praise be to Allah!!
Off goes the barrel and busted latch to Sugar Land, Texas. Back it comes in a matter of days-----fixed! It was not only fixed, you can't even tell where it was fixed---even if I showed you where to look!
Like I said---a WIZARD gunsmith!!
Ralph Tremaine
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On pg. 103 of that book it states that the 38 Winchester production totaled only 74. The OP's gun falls outside those originally produced, so the factory made one up for the buyer with serial number 4071. Odd that there is no mention of this caliber in the Neal & Jinks book.
Odd-----yes, but considering the fact they (the extant factory records at least) couldn't confirm the caliber of my gun, perhaps not all that unusual.
Take my gun for instance---the only folks who needed to know what the caliber was (was to be) were the fellow who made the holes in the gun, and the one who stamped the caliber on the barrel.
The only other concern was to see to it the bill got paid.
Ralph Tremaine
Take my gun for instance---the only folks who needed to know what the caliber was (was to be) were the fellow who made the holes in the gun, and the one who stamped the caliber on the barrel.
The only other concern was to see to it the bill got paid.
Ralph Tremaine
mmaher94087
Member
Gary, I think the serial number confusion is single action #3 vs. a double action #3.
Single action #3: 74 units.
Double action #3: 276 units.
Single action #3: 74 units.
Double action #3: 276 units.
This image doesn't help. What you need to do is determine what numbers are stamped on the rear of the top-frame, on either side of the top latch. Sometimes, stamped with partial numbers on both the left and right side. Just hold your revolver barrel facing away with the action open and look past the latch to the barrel strap. Might need magnification.
Boulder350
Member
Research
I am only trying to prove that the OP's rare gun is legit based on information provided. I'm now 100% convinced its real.
It would be great if the OP could provide a barrel serial number but the information that we have now proves its real.
The 38WCF Double action barrel is identical to the 38 WCF Single action barrel
The fact that there is a clear and correct caliber stamp on the barrel and that the OP has confirmed the barrel length is 6 1/2" is all we need.
Roy Jinks lists that the Double action 38WCF was not available with the 6 1/2" barrel length…..GAME OVER! Given the information provide by the OP is correct. I'm always amazed at how one photo shows no caliber marking then another shows a clear marking so we are at the mercy of information "provided".
RARE BIRD FOR SURE!
MURPH
I am only trying to prove that the OP's rare gun is legit based on information provided. I'm now 100% convinced its real.
It would be great if the OP could provide a barrel serial number but the information that we have now proves its real.
The 38WCF Double action barrel is identical to the 38 WCF Single action barrel
The fact that there is a clear and correct caliber stamp on the barrel and that the OP has confirmed the barrel length is 6 1/2" is all we need.
Roy Jinks lists that the Double action 38WCF was not available with the 6 1/2" barrel length…..GAME OVER! Given the information provide by the OP is correct. I'm always amazed at how one photo shows no caliber marking then another shows a clear marking so we are at the mercy of information "provided".
RARE BIRD FOR SURE!
MURPH
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I can't tell you how much I appreciate the knowledge and information here. I bought this gun from a reputable guy with a great background in these guns. He had several with stocks on them, and I was interested in one of those as well.
The cylinder is also serial numbered to the gun.
Thanks so much for sharing all your knowledge…
The cylinder is also serial numbered to the gun.
Thanks so much for sharing all your knowledge…
John Adams
Member
Here's mine
This one I was given about 20 years ago. Serial number is three digits and I have no idea of the caliber as it not marked. Last patent date is July 25 1871. It seems functional but I have not shot it.It is my only Smith not made in the 20th Century.
This one I was given about 20 years ago. Serial number is three digits and I have no idea of the caliber as it not marked. Last patent date is July 25 1871. It seems functional but I have not shot it.It is my only Smith not made in the 20th Century.
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Roy's letter stating "from February 1906 to January 1907 there were no New Model #3 in 38 Winchester in inventory" is a little strange. I have a NM #3 in the 38-40 caliber, serial number 5x that was shipped March 6, 1906. Maybe it was lost while in inventory!
B, Mower
B, Mower
How does one deal with a letter that becomes the absolute pedigree of a gun. I know Winchester has made plenty mistakes in their records, I have had a few. The scary part is that with the buying public, the letter can make or break the gun..
If/when you deem a letter to be unsatisfactory, you have two choices: The first and most obvious is to return it along with an explanation of your concerns---and request a corrected/altered letter.
Then there's what I did once. I ordered a letter on a 6" 2nd Model Single Shot---the barrel length being the most important aspect. Back comes a letter over Don's signature. That was somewhat startling because I didn't know he had started doing letters. A little poking around revealed Roy'd been out of town, otherwise occupied---whatever. Don couldn't confirm the barrel length---knew it was important---and apologized for the omission.
I sat and stewed a bit, then checked on Roy's availability---he was back in business---and simply ordered another letter---never said boo about the first one.
Back comes the second letter---from Roy. It goes like this: "The records indicate that this pistol was shipped with a 6 inch barrel, blue finish, and checkered black hard rubber target grips. This was a special order for a single unit."
I decided Don hadn't been to special order/single unit research school yet---and was a happy camper!
Ralph Tremaine
Then there's what I did once. I ordered a letter on a 6" 2nd Model Single Shot---the barrel length being the most important aspect. Back comes a letter over Don's signature. That was somewhat startling because I didn't know he had started doing letters. A little poking around revealed Roy'd been out of town, otherwise occupied---whatever. Don couldn't confirm the barrel length---knew it was important---and apologized for the omission.
I sat and stewed a bit, then checked on Roy's availability---he was back in business---and simply ordered another letter---never said boo about the first one.
Back comes the second letter---from Roy. It goes like this: "The records indicate that this pistol was shipped with a 6 inch barrel, blue finish, and checkered black hard rubber target grips. This was a special order for a single unit."
I decided Don hadn't been to special order/single unit research school yet---and was a happy camper!
Ralph Tremaine
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rickyt
Member
I thought the NM3 target was available in only in 2 calibres, 32-44, or the rarer 38-44. But is there a a 38-40 in a target NM3??.
Here's mine: (32-44)
