S&W Model 36--+P Rated?

[RANDY393]

Just got another gun, model 36 snub-nosed 38, wondering if it's +p rated. Newer models have that stamped on the barrel, mine doesn't. sn #J138*** Randy

 

[murphydog]

S & W used to say that any model stamped steel frame revolver was safe for +P, but they now state it has to be stamped for +P. Liability issues and not having any control over what ammo people will put into guns (what is called +P varies) are the likely causes for this change.

Having stated that, factory +P will accelerate wear on your 36 but is safe. Hope this is helpful.

 

[Pizza Bob]

S & W used to say that any model stamped steel frame revolver was safe for +P, but they now state it has to be stamped for +P. Liability issues and not having any control over what ammo people will put into guns (what is called +P varies) are the likely causes for this change.

Where did that statement about +P come from? Here is what the manual says...

From the manual:
"Use only commercially manufactured ammunition with internal
ballistic pressures which are in strict accordance with the specifications
of the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute (SAAMI). If you are uncertain, contact your ammunition supplier for verification."

There are SAAMI specs for +P

Use of "Plus-P" ammunition may result in the need for more
frequent service."

It does not say'Do not use +P.

"Plus-P-Plus" (+P+) ammunition must not be used in Smith &
Wesson firearms. This marking on the ammunition designates that
it exceeds established industry standards, but the designation
does not represent defined pressure limits and therefore such
ammunition may vary significantly as to the pressures generated
and could be DANGEROUS."

What you say is true for +P+, but there are SAAMI specs for +P.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

 

[Shorty 45 MK2]

Welcome to the Forum!

Here's a write up on the subject by a forum member.

Shooting with Hobie

It's a good read.

 

[murphydog]

I agree that a statement of "+P according to SAAMI standards" means 21,000 psi for .38 Special. If any and all labeling of +P .38 indicates this you are correct, but I would be interested to hear if this is the case. I'm not sure in all instances - some ammo makers seem to get 100-200 fps out of a +P .38 of the same bullet weight than another maker's +P but both are labeled as such.

 

[Old cop]

I shoot a cylinder full of the 158 +P in all my airweight Js a few times each year. I want to be proficient w/it and not be surprised by recoil. No problems thus far and my Model 38 dates back to 1962, and my Colt Cobra to 1968.

 

[murphydog]

Sorry, didn't read the whole message from Pizza Bob...

The OP asked about his model 36, and I suspect the manual quote is from a more recent (factory +P rated) gun. I have shot plenty of +P .38 in all sorts of revolvers (none of which were "rated) without any ill effects, but his question was about any factory rating and not safety.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Just got another gun, model 36 snub-nosed 38, wondering if it's +p rated. Newer models have that stamped on the barrel, mine doesn't. sn #J138*** Randy

Yep, it is.

+P only became an issue with the introduction of aluminum frames for lightweight models. All-steel revolvers are good to go for +P.

That's not to say it won't slightly reduce its service life, but there's no significant danger of catastrophic failure, especially if it's a post-WWII gun.

 

[Pizza Bob]

I agree that a statement of "+P according to SAAMI standards" means 21,000 psi for .38 Special. If any and all labeling of +P .38 indicates this you are correct, but I would be interested to hear if this is the case. I'm not sure in all instances - some ammo makers seem to get 100-200 fps out of a +P .38 of the same bullet weight than another maker's +P but both are labeled as such.

SAAMI spec for standard pressure .38 Spl is 17K PSI. For +P rated ammo it is 18.5K PSI. Those are industry standards, set by SAAMI, that all legitimate ammo manufacturers adhere to. Simply because one manufacturer can wring more FPS out of a specific caliber than another is not an indicator they are exceeding the pressure standards. There is a lot of proprietary information in the industry, especially when it comes to the formulation of powders, which has a direct bearing on bullet velocities.

+P+ is a whole other ball game. All that indicates is that the ammo so marked exceeds all SAAMI standards for a given caliber. +P+ is usually produced under a specific contract, for a specific agency, with specific firearms. The "recipe" for such ammo may be reached in collusion with the arms manufacturer, which may sign off on it for that specific use. Or it may be independently tested for use in a specific firearm. When +P+ ammunition reaches the secondary market, you are buying a "pig in a poke" as my father used to say. You have no idea what pressure standards that ammo is loaded to - other than it exceeds anything SAAMI specifies for that caliber. It could be 5% above +P or it could be 25% above. I value my firearms too much to use +P+ ammo in them.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

SAAMI spec for standard pressure .38 Spl is 17K PSI. For +P rated ammo it is 18.5K PSI. Those are industry standards, set by SAAMI, that all legitimate ammo manufacturers adhere to. Simply because one manufacturer can wring more FPS out of a specific caliber than another is not an indicator they are exceeding the pressure standards. There is a lot of proprietary information in the industry, especially when it comes to the formulation of powders, which has a direct bearing on bullet velocities.

+P+ is a whole other ball game. All that indicates is that the ammo so marked exceeds all SAAMI standards for a given caliber. +P+ is usually produced under a specific contract, for a specific agency, with specific firearms. The "recipe" for such ammo may be reached in collusion with the arms manufacturer, which may sign off on it for that specific use. Or it may be independently tested for use in a specific firearm. When +P+ ammunition reaches the secondary market, you are buying a "pig in a poke" as my father used to say. You have no idea what pressure standards that ammo is loaded to - other than it exceeds anything SAAMI specifies for that caliber. It could be 5% above +P or it could be 25% above. I value my firearms too much to use +P+ ammo in them.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

I guess you could always shoot them in a Magnum.

 

[DWalt]

Keep in mind that SAAMI specifies only MAXIMUM peak chamber pressure limits. Most major manufacturers (Winchester, Remington, and Federal) load somewhat below the maximum peak chamber pressure. Some push the +P limit, like Buffalo Bore and some other "Boutique" ammo loaders. Also, SAAMI specifications should not be considered as "Law." They are voluntary, not compulsory, standards, but reputable loaders will observe them to avoid potential legal liability problems. There is no SAAMI peak chamber pressure specification for +P+ as there is for +P, but it is generally not very far beyond the +P standard.

 

[JP@AK]

Whenever I see this sort of question about an older S&W revolver (1950s to 1970s) it sort of makes me smile. Asking whether a gun made in 1973 is "rated" for +P ammo is really anachronistic. How could S&W be expected to "rate" a gun for ammo that, at the time the gun was produced, did not exist? In 1973, no manufacturer was producing ammo called +P. That stuff came along later (although I don't recall the exact year).
It is a legitimate question to ask if the ammo is safe to shoot in an older gun. But "rated?" It makes no sense.
After the widespread availability and use of +P and +P+ ammo, the company did start marking some revolvers as "rated" for the slightly higher pressure +P cartridges. But they did not and could not have done this before the stuff even existed.

Can anyone tell me when the +P ammunition started hitting the shelves? (And, of course, I'm not talking about .38/44 ammo. That is a different ballgame.)

 

[alwslate]

The current pressure limits for 38 spl is 17,000 psi for std pressure
and 20,000 psi for +P. Read the current loading manuals. The
statement regarding +P being ok for any model marked (post 1957)
steel frame revolver refers to K frames not J frames. There is a chart
published by S&W, included with some owner's manuals, showing
which models are approved for +P and which are not. The steel frame
36 is not.

 

[chief38]

The basic rule of thumb is to routinely shoot it with standard velocity ammo and shoot a few +P's for familiarization and sighting it in. Carry the +P's for SD & HD.

 

[Green Frog]

My guns in the 38/357 realm include a Baby Chief, a Model 60-4and a 686. If I load anything in a 38 Spl case now, it is loaded to levels I feel confident shooting in the first two. If I want to shoot something hotter, the 6" Model 686 can take the heat. I've gone as hot as original 38 +P loads from the 1970s FBI type, and while both the Baby and the 60 digested them nicely, I feel no desire to push the envelope any further. JMHO, YMMV.

Froggie

 

[murphydog]

The current pressure limits for 38 spl is 17,000 psi for std pressure
and 20,000 psi for +P. Read the current loading manuals. The
statement regarding +P being ok for any model marked (post 1957)
steel frame revolver refers to K frames not J frames. There is a chart
published by S&W, included with some owner's manuals, showing
which models are approved for +P and which are not. The steel frame
36 is not.

Thanks for the information, filed for future reference .

 

[JohnSW]

I have a 36-1 that's marked ".38 S&W SPECIAL CTG". I emailed S&W the serial number, and asked them if I could occasionally use +P. They said no, never use +P in that gun.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

The basic rule of thumb is to routinely shoot it with standard velocity ammo and shoot a few +P's for familiarization and sighting it in. Carry the +P's for SD & HD.

I do believe that that so-called basic rule of thumb was developed AFTER the advent of commercial +P ammunition, meaning that nobody recommended practice with commercial .38s but loading hotter self defense rounds because it meant advocating handloads for SD and HD and, back in the day, I don't think anyone did that, at least not in public. ICBW..... BIDTS....

It became a VERY common basic rule of thumb after the advent of +P rated, little handguns and very much the rule, or "conventional wisdom", after the .357 Magnum snubbies came onto the market. "Shot a little, carried a lot" was the mantra that was oft repeated.

So, even if a solid steel model 36 is arguably safe to load with +P ammunition you must remember that it is "arguably safe", it is not "rated" safe, as discussed above.

***GRJ***

PS:

One more fun note for Randy:

"Just got another gun, model 36 snub-nosed 38......"

That's what is known as a "reeking redundancy" in some circles or, as I once heard on a TV show many years ago called "American Religious Town Hall" when one preacher or priest kept calling rabbis "Jewish rabbis" and the rabbi on the show, Jordan Ofseyer (very anti-gun guy, btw, but a very learned and smart man in other ways) said that that was "redundant, there are no other kinds of rabbis", or words to that effect. My point being that not all snub nosed revolvers are Model 36s but all Model 36s are snub nosed revolvers.....in .38 Special.....

 

[M2MikeGolf]

PS:

One more fun note for Randy:

"Just got another gun, model 36 snub-nosed 38......"

That's what is known as a "reeking redundancy" in some circles or, as I once heard on a TV show many years ago called "American Religious Town Hall" when one preacher or priest kept calling rabbis "Jewish rabbis" and the rabbi on the show, Jordan Ofseyer (very anti-gun guy, btw, but a very learned and smart man in other ways) said that that was "redundant, there are no other kinds of rabbis", or words to that effect. My point being that not all snub nosed revolvers are Model 36s but all Model 36s are snub nosed revolvers.....in .38 Special.....

Oh, but I beg to differ with that last point:

 

[shawn mccarver]

I am never quite sure what difference it makes if it is "+P rated" as +P in huge numbers will accelerate wear, but use of them in an S&W in proper condition will not cause any sort of catastrophic failure. Therefore, shoot a few to see where they hit, load up with them, and then practice with ordinary ammo. Your wallet will thank you.