S&W phasing out metal auto 3rd gens?

[curioushooter]

So based on your logic if someone actually like a .380acp Hi-Point they are uneducated?

Pretty much. Or they are penny-wise dollar foolish.

So when Jim Corely pulled out a Kel-Tec P32 and shot and killed a would-be attacker he was uneducated?

I guess it was better than a knife or a .25 Auto. Notice how it took a LONG time for it to kill the would-be armed robber, and I understand more than one shot was taken. Could have become ugly if the guy was tougher. Good thing for him it was a shaky handed teenager.

So when Rob Leatham uses his Springfield Armory XD Tactical for Production Class competitions he is uneducated?

Not too familiar with these pistols' internals, but I am sure they work when they are given to him for free (or nearly) by Springfield, Inc. I am confident, though, that the demonstrate every shortcoming of polymer that has been mentioned. I am sure that Bob Villa really believes that Craftsman tools are the best, too.

So when 8 time National Champion Bob Vogel uses one of several Glocks to win competitions he is uneducated?

As far as I know Vogel used 1911s before going to Glocks, which was mainly for their unusually raked grips, not because they were plastic. I like the feel of raked grips, too. The particular geometry of his hand or my hand may work better with this grip. One thing I dislike about Glocks in my hand (which is a pretty average hand by my estimation) is that the trigger is not in the crease of my finger. It may be different for others. Apparently Vogel likes the Glock trigger, which I don't. I think it is interesting to note where allowed he uses custom made metal magwells. If Glocks were steel to being with, would this be necessary?

Weaver was another pistol expert that liked longer DA revolver triggers! Cooper like short resetting single actions even though he was a big admirer of Weaver's hold. I can go on citing different experts of successful competitors with opposite opinions. I am giving mine and my reasons.

It is important to realize the arbitrariness of competition rules compared to the real world. I think the major/minor distinction in the ISPC is the most glaring one. Points should be directly related to some valuable metric like kinetic energy at the target or taylor KO at the target or something. When you try to infer conclusions about competitors' firearm selections, you must consider that what is important to them is radically different from what you think is important, because they are trying to maximize their effectiveness in a framework of somewhat arbitrary rules. A good example of this is that revolvers, which are seldom seen when auto-pistols are allowed to compete against them, make good house guns because there is no magazine spring that is left compressed for perhaps years and taking a "set." A revolver that has sat for 3 years loaded may have an advantage vs an auto-pistol that has sat for 3 years loaded. This is just one example. An educated shooter will almost certainly choose a different pistol for competition than he does for duty or for protection. He could have different reasons for all three choices. Or he may not. So the point is that it is a fallacy to point to some competitor and say: he does it so you are wrong or he uses this so it is good. The characteristics of the gun, game, and shooter have little to do with each other. My beef lies with polymer pistols and polymer pistol evangelists.

If someone can point to one advantage of polymer for constructing the frame of a pistol over stainless steel I would like to know.

The original topic here was that S&W was rumored to be phasing out their 3rd Gens (made of steel) and going to their plastics. Obviously the issue of steel vs. plastic is at issue here. I think the whole matter of the most recognizable American handgun maker phasing out their longest-developed line of steel auto-pistols is a reflection of greater problems within the shooting community and our civilization in general.

We all sadly know what happens when the decision makers change things. In the end you can't fight them because they redefine what is is. Manual transmissions and to a lesser degree RWD are not even available to those who know better because the herd followed the shepherd down the auto/FWD path (can you believe 50% of Corvettes are AUTOS!). I fear real steel pistols, which I greatly prefer, will be unavailable or at least deprived of support or interest if S&W does go this way, and I will do what little I can to prevent it (by getting on a soapbox). I hope I don't see the day when all steel pistols are outlawed because they are "magnetic" or something (I am sure they will think up something).

Unless S&W colludes with the hoplophobes again and shreds all the trade-ins.

Worried about it too! For the reasons I have stated.

 

[Poohgyrr]

This sounds more like a transition to a better product, with a little production lag as a result rather than production being ceased

Someday, I would like to replace the sweet 3913 I traded for a sweet snub M66 (tuned). New and improved sounds good. If they started making good 5" 5906's, either standard or PC, that could be great.

If they brought back the .356 TSW round, then maybe the .357 Sig would go away.. LOL......

 

[ScottJ]

And for full disclosure while I empathize with curioushooter I also own and do things he would frown upon.

I often carry a NAA Guardian .380 in the Summer when I find my SP101 too bulky.

I own a SW9VE and Taurus Millennium Pro .45 (both polymer framed and striker fired).

I also appreciate what S&W does best IMO (Model 66 and 629 Classic found in my collection and a 28-2 is my next planned purchase).

My tastes are wide and varied.

 

[Atlanta_SW40]

Why doesnt S&W start making a 4th gen of their most popular metal framed autos?

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

The current company calling itself S&W doesn't seem to concern itself with anything but profit.
More profit in tupperware guns. So much profit that they are able to give them to agencies for FREE.....well....in exchange for the agencies current issue handguns.

Less profit in 3rd generation pistols. They cost more to make, and are better pistols than the plastic striker fired.....stuff....they are pushing out the door and profiting from.

Since they already compete with themselves in the revolver market, they don't want to compete with themselves on the semi auto front too. Although given what they make I forsee them doing just that! My 0.02 Regards 18DAI.

I think that's what they're supposed to do

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

Plastic pistol concept. Translation: using inferior materials to make an inferior tool that will need to be replaced at regular intervals ensuring continued profit.

Often materials define a civilization. First came the stone age. Stone tools could not hold and edge, were brittle, and difficult to fabricate. Bronze was a huge advancement over stone. Edges were possible. Effective weapons, tools, labor-saving plows and other simple machines allowed food production to increase and allowed people to protect themselves and their food/land from thieves. This made possible by bronze. If it were not for bronze, some hold that written language would have never developed because efficient agriculture, which produced a surplus of food, which was then "marked" by its owner, would have never happened. Eventually steel came along, the material that enabled modern civilization, the industrial revolution, huge advances in material comfort and leisure time. Since steel, there has been no material that has really caused a revolution in human affairs...except, perhaps, plastic, which is a material that is retrograde compared to steel, wood, and other materials.

Plastic has very few applications where it is truly superior to another material. Perhaps an artificial heart or surgical glove. Usually plastic is used because it is easier to work with than the traditional material. Vinyl siding is cheaper to put up than wood. Nylon is cheaper to make than silk, linen, hemp, cotton, or wool. Plastic milk jugs are cheaper to make than glass. Plastic piano keys are cheaper to fabricate than ivory or bone. Polymer guns are easier to form than steel. This is mainly because plastic is very easy to form through injection processes rather than material removal processes that require tools and a workman.

In many ways plastic is merely a symbol of our civilization's decline. All successful civilizations have chosen to use the best materials available to them for what they felt was important since they had hope for the future and a feeling of duty towards their descendants. This is why cathedrals were built of stone when wood was available. Only a diseased civilization deliberately makes things with shoddy materials.

My great-grandfather's STEEL M1905 is still working fine...and it has the best trigger I have ever felt on any handgun. Will your great grand child even know you have a Glock? If he does, will it be treasured as an object of a workman's skill? Or will it be like so many cheap plastic toys strewn about on the floor.

If you ever sit back and wonder what is wrong with the world today...at least one of your answers should be plastic, which is just a symbol of our throwaway "values" and contempt for quality and longevity.

I will never own a plastic gun or have one with a plastic stock. You could never get me to trade my Garand for a AR-10! I would never trade my 1076 for a Glock 20!

The plastic (Derlin) grips on 3rd Gen S&Ws are troublesome enough to me to go out and get some rubber or hardwood ones from Hogue!

This ought to get good

 

[18DAI]

Yea, profit is a corporations only concern. Reliability, durability, accuracy, finish, quality, ect, ect......yea.....who cares about any of those things. Make a buck.

 

[mlk18]

Because of this thread I have formally asked S&W to stop making guns and instead focus research and development on new and unique weapons like this:

 

[K96771]

Curioushooter, I may not agree with all that you say, but I enjoy reading it. I look forward to more of your opinion pieces. I don't find myself attracted to the plastic at all. I love my 5906, 686 and 66-3. In rifles I go for wood; Garand, 03a3, Eddystone, and even a Mosin and SKS. BTW, a belated 'welcome.'

 

[ladder13]

I guess you can count me as "uneducated", tough burden to bear, but who the heck cares how long a polymer gun lasts. It does it's job better than most when asked to do so,and will be around long after we're all gone. Put your metal framed guns alongside a Glock in a bucket of water, see what happens in a couple days.
Society is being destroyed because of plastic. Thought it was Walmart.
I used to drink Ballantyne, Schaefer or Schlitz for kicks. I hate beer, period.
Troll on.

 

[Knightrider03m]

Fine, more "plastic" guns for me. I don't see the big deal with them.

 

[Dave_n]

Well, I find myself agreeing with "Curiousshooter" in most of his comments. Of the roughly 100 handguns that I own, only three are "tupperware guns!". One Glock 21, one Walther P99 in 9 mm and one Walther P99 in 0.40 S&W (and they are the German-made, not the SW versions). The rest are S&W, Sig, Walther, Mauser, Beretta, DMW, Webley, Enfield, CZ and an odd Polish one plus Tula. All are "Steel" and I agree with some other posters, the triggers on my M&P 1905s and MKIIs are "out of this world" even though those guns are between 90 and 100 years old. As far as beer is concerned, you missed the Guinness, though the Trappist is close. Dave_n

 

[kahrboy]

One dealer I use a lot is in the largest gun buying group in the US; he orders his S&W stuff direct. I've seen the rep in the store. He called S&W for me to try and get a 40 railer- told him they have none and aren't making any more.

So i decimated my stock of H&K and Sigs and traded for and bought two 39-2's, two 6906's, 3913, 4006, 4040PD, and a 457. If I find a 4506 at the rright deal, I'll get it.

Maybe not the best investment idea, butI find myself carring Smiths while the others stay in a safe.

 

[Culina]

I have a couple of Glocks with them stainless rails placed in the frames. The one I carry and shoot most, a G23 has a lot more rounds through it than a 910 I also have. It turns out a grain of sand worked its way into the 910 one day at the range and caused quite a bit of damage to the aluminum rails. Maybe that is why Glock used stainless instead of a softer alloy. I also have an all steel .40 auto that I bought because it was all steel. Turns out it stays home a lot, infact, it hasn't been out of the safe in 3-4 years maybe longer. Its heavy, holds less rounds than my G23, is not as realable as my G23, and picking up the sight is not as simple as my G23. I could go on but I think it pretty clear. The plastic framed guns are popular for a reason. The S&W 3rd gens are probably the only US made auto to compete with the European designs and it would be sad to see it go. Maybe it can be resurected with a better field strip and reassembly proceedure.

 

[bobelk99]

I would like to thank you gentlemen for an entertaining thread. No sarcasm intended.

Let us be grateful that S&W is willing to cater to the buying public and produce whatever the market is willing to buy. If they stopped doing that (= no profit) they would disappear, and we wouldn't have anything made by Smith to buy.

 

[capttom]

I can't fault Smith & Wesson for going after the market with the Sigma and M&P. It's called capitalism. Also, I hope that the Holton plant will continue with 3rd gen production beyond the TSW models. My 908 and 6904 are fully serviceble weapons and will do everything a Glock or M&P (except in the latter's case with its variable backstraps, but since the metal models fit my hand, so what?)will do with only a few ounces in penalty. I can drive a plain Jane F-150 or an F-150 King Ranch Edition. Both do pretty much the same job. I don't expect anyone to dis me if I choose the higher dollar hauler. Nor do I look down on the bare bones truck.

 

[Super Trucker]

Why doesnt S&W start making a 4th gen of their most popular metal framed autos?

Unfortunatly because only about 10 of us would be interested in one.
I don't think S&W cares about what the few want, they just care about the bottom dollar.

 

[Knightrider03m]

Still have their 1911 line up....

 

[Fastbolt]

I have a couple of Glocks with them stainless rails placed in the frames. The one I carry and shoot most, a G23 has a lot more rounds through it than a 910 I also have. It turns out a grain of sand worked its way into the 910 one day at the range and caused quite a bit of damage to the aluminum rails. Maybe that is why Glock used stainless instead of a softer alloy.

I've never been told in my Glock classes, or by any employee, that Glock started using stainless steel for the frame rail inserts (or any other parts). That's why they've tried different types of coatings over the years on the small parts which aren't Tenifer treated. As I recall, for at least the last few years they've been using a Teflon Nickel plating on the frame rails. When this plating starts to flake it can sometimes reveal the copper plating underneath (which typically isn't considered anything other than a minor cosmetic issue by Glock).

 

[RPM2DAY]

"I have a couple of Glocks with them stainless rails placed in the frames."

Yep, they exist. Two guys I used to work with had one each in 9mm.