Sandy Hook shooting a managed event?

[StatesRightist]

Sorry if I offended you.

Don't sweat it, sometimes I overreact, it may be me. I might have read something into your post that was not there.

I just wanted to be clear I'm not pushing any particular agenda. I'm just concerned a lot of people have not thought past calling a Congressman or is there an agenda past getting our AR's? The main concern I have is with the fast pace and lack of civility many us us deal with everyday, it's hard sometimes to make yourself think past tomorrow. I'm not looking for them to come to any one conclusion, just to kick it around.

Bottom-line, you are a NRA member, a fellow gun owner and in the end, an ally. We're fine, I hope you have a good night.

 

[StatesRightist]

Sorry if I offended you.

......and, I always enjoy a debate with a thinker, which you obviously are.

 

[Grayfox]

Not to be crass, but it is certainly easy enough to determine what bullets actually killed those poor children. Where is the ME report??

I saw video of the news conference where the ME said that all the victims were killed with the "long weapon" as he refered to it.

Yet when reported in print it said "In what appeared to be an uncomfortable moment for Carver, he said all of the victims he had examined had all been shot by a Bushmaster .223 caliber assault rifle,"

Did the ME really know what the bullets he removed from these victims were? Is this ME a wound ballistics expert? And at such close range wouldn't .223s most likely have gone completely through?

Good thing we had the reporter to clear it up for us.

Just do a search and you can easily find both the actual video and news reports. But again the reporters story and the actual words used don't match up.

 

[HAWKEYE10]

If this was found to be untrue about the AR15 it's to late for gun owners. The damage has been done. I think it's best to focus on what we can do to limit their agenda. Don

 

[GLV]

As a famous TV cop used to say

'The facts mam, just the facts.'

I think all of the public needs to know the facts.

 

[Joewisc]

I have posted this before; here is the link again.

Strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms (Quotation) « Thomas Jefferson

Be safe.

Even if Tom didn't say it he'd probably agreed with it.

 

[Joewisc]

But, the fact remains, there were crazy. I really think that we should hammer this point to oblivion and not try to "second, third, and infinity guess about events, that is at best, by us, only conjecture. I am not real sure the "others" don't delight in this hodge podge.

Just my 3 cents (adjusted for inflation).

One could make a case (and defense lawyers almost always do) that any murderer is insane. But it seems too facile and convenient an argument to me. Did these shooters have mental problems? Certainly. Were they "crazy"? Not necessarily. They all possessed the ability to plan their violent actions, which suggests premeditation. That is homicide in the first degree as opposed to 2nd degree, which is typically "a crime of passion" or negligence. When killers are judged "mentally incompetent" to stand trial for their crimes, I cringe because it's a way to avoid responsibility for one's actions.

Hitler and other tyrants were responsible for millions of deaths. Were they "crazy," too? Mein Kampf, written more than a decade before he became chancellor in 1933, spelled out in detail his master race theories and plans to eliminate Jews. This was a calculating mind and hardly spontaneous in its development into "the final solution."

 

[Biginge]

Joe ole buddy,

You missed my point totally.

 

[crofoot629]

I'm sure there are people on the other side of the fence who think the whole thing was engineered to increase NRA membership.

Initial reports are always wrong. Almost every mass shooting with a single guy has a "second shooter" reported initially. Its just human nature.

I'm sure the rifle was used in the shooting. To get every cop, first responder, and employee at the medical examiner's office to go along with falsifying wounds and planting .223 empties at the scene would be impossible.

I'm pretty sure this poster is an FBI agent.
And I trust him, having read many of his posts.

The AR in the trunk is troubling.
I even believe the ME has said at different times the wounds were consistant with a high power rifle, AND also seperately from that statement said they were consistant with pistol wounds.

That leaves me with SIG220's statment as most reliable.
If his information changes I hope he will come forward with it.


Emory
---------------------------------------------------------------
Hard To Kill

 

[bob1956]

Great thread it's good to see there are many opinions here as far as the facts go it will be many years before we get to the details. Remember we live in the red tape world of the government we support. I bring to the table a thought and that is who would have thought our government would have been behind fast and furious. Case made.

 

[Joewisc]

Joe ole buddy,

You missed my point totally.

Run it by me again and I'll give it my due attention. On second thought, my bad. I now see the context and the irony. I read right through it, ol' bud. Mea culpa.

 

[DeathGrip]

Evil pistols or evil bushmaster. Does it really make a matter?

Think about it, If it's proven that he only used pistols "They" would be happy. Everyone knows pistols are more deadly and concealable as pointed out before.

Buck up my friends. "They" will twist it anyway that works for their agenda.

Sent to you by my freedom of speech. God bless us.

 

[sigp220.45]

I'm pretty sure this poster is an FBI agent.
And I trust him, having read many of his posts.

The AR in the trunk is troubling.
I even believe the ME has said at different times the wounds were consistant with a high power rifle, AND also seperately from that statement said they were consistant with pistol wounds.

That leaves me with SIG220's statment as most reliable.
If his information changes I hope he will come forward with it.


Emory
---------------------------------------------------------------
Hard To Kill

I am an agent, but I have no inside information on this. As far as I know, our involvement has been limited to providing some Victim Advocates and chasing a few leads. This is a local matter, though I'm sure ATF is playing, too.

I base my opinion on 30 years of LE experience. There isn't a lot of info out now because there is no one to be charged, so there aren't any search warrant affidavits or criminal complaint affidavits filed for the press to pick over.

I know a lot of cops, and I don't know a single one who would monkey with a crime scene in a case of this magnitude, with 20 dead kindergarteners in a room. I just can't see finding one guy willing to salt the scene with .223 cases, let alone getting 40 other first responders and the ME's office to go along with the plan. And for what purpose? Do you really think these first responders were looking for an opportunity to get an expired AWB re-initiated? In a state where it never expired?

I attribute the gun in the trunk thing to the fog of war effect. I understand there was a shotgun in the trunk and that was probably mixed into the confusion and became the AR that was in the room. But, I don't know any more about the specifics than any of you.

 

[Joewisc]

Evil pistols or evil bushmaster. Does it really make a matter?

Think about it, If it's proven that he only used pistols "They" would be happy. Everyone knows pistols are more deadly and concealable as pointed out before.

Buck up my friends. "They" will twist it anyway that works for their agenda.

Sent to you by my freedom of speech. God bless us.

Excellent point. Fact is rifles account for only 3 percent of all gun homicides. After all, a gun is a gun is a gun.

 

[jlrhiner]

I have a great respect for our members, especially those in law enforcement. I'm not intentionally trying to be obtuse, but when a press conference is held, is it normally less than 50% accurate? I mean, do they normally get basic facts wrong?

 

[mod34]

The only thing (image) that I saw that made me scratch my head a little was a picture of our CIC as he was being told about the tragedy by his chief of staff. The thing that had me scratching my head was, why was there a photographer in the room at that very moment??

 

[Joewisc]

I am an agent, but I have no inside information on this. As far as I know, our involvement has been limited to providing some Victim Advocates and chasing a few leads. This is a local matter, though I'm sure ATF is playing, too.

I base my opinion on 30 years of LE experience. There isn't a lot of info out now because there is no one to be charged, so there aren't any search warrant affidavits or criminal complaint affidavits filed for the press to pick over.

I know a lot of cops, and I don't know a single one who would monkey with a crime scene in a case of this magnitude, with 20 dead kindergarteners in a room. I just can't see finding one guy willing to salt the scene with .223 cases, let alone getting 40 other first responders and the ME's office to go along with the plan. And for what purpose? Do you really think these first responders were looking for an opportunity to get an expired AWB re-initiated? In a state where it never expired?

I attribute the gun in the trunk thing to the fog of war effect. I understand there was a shotgun in the trunk and that was probably mixed into the confusion and became the AR that was in the room. But, I don't know any more about the specifics than any of you.

A conspiracy necessarily involves more than one person, but not necessarily 40. Two can make a conspiracy. Airplane accident investigations usually take at least a year to complete. And yet the Sandy Hook probe is wrapped up in three weeks?!

Although the shooter is dead and there are no charges, does that mean the investigation is at an end? We've learned virtually nothing about the assailant or his mother; nothing about what was found on his computer if anything, nothing about his movements prior to the crime, nothing about autopsy results.

After an initial blitz of media coverage exploiting community grief that morphed into yet another tiresome debate about gun control, we are left with lots of questions but few answers.

I respect your views as an LEO, but I for one am not satisfied with "official" explanations. It seems to me the media dropped the ball on this one by accepting every statement made at a news conference or in a press release as gospel.

 

[MTS Cop]

This story was horribly reported on from the get go. First it was one person shot in the foot. Then it's 20 dead kids. And that's only the tip of the iceberg. The media is manipulating this event to fit their agenda, no doubt. I have written reports about incidents that made the news. What the news reported and what I wrote (the truth) were totally different. I think that was the day I stopped buying newspapers. Instead of looking to infringe on the 2nd Amendment I'm starting to think we would all be better off if parts of the 1st Amendment were tweeked. The media in this country has to be stopped.

 

[LVSteve]

The only thing (image) that I saw that made me scratch my head a little was a picture of our CIC as he was being told about the tragedy by his chief of staff. The thing that had me scratching my head was, why was there a photographer in the room at that very moment??

Because too many departments pander to the so-called fourth estate... or it could have been the department's photographer.

 

[LVSteve]

A conspiracy necessarily involves more than one person, but not necessarily 40. Two can make a conspiracy. Airplane accident investigations usually take at least a year to complete. And yet the Sandy Hook probe is wrapped up in three weeks?!

Although the shooter is dead and there are no charges, does that mean the investigation is at an end? We've learned virtually nothing about the assailant or his mother; nothing about what was found on his computer if anything, nothing about his movements prior to the crime, nothing about autopsy results.

After an initial blitz of media coverage exploiting community grief that morphed into yet another tiresome debate about gun control, we are left with lots of questions but few answers.

I respect your views as an LEO, but I for one am not satisfied with "official" explanations. It seems to me the media dropped the ball on this one by accepting every statement made at a news conference or in a press release as gospel.

As to any further information becoming available, what is the CT law on investigating deaths? In the UK there would be a coroner's inquest at the very least, and that office is totally separate from the police or Crown Prosecution Service. Many (most?) states do not have coroner's courts and it is often the DA's office that says the equivalent of, "yep, based on the police investigation we know who did it, the perp is dead, nothing more to see".

If you want ACCURATE information in the public eye you need a mechanism for presenting it. The current crop of media do not qualify because of their various agendas. They are simply incapable/unwilling of giving you the whole story even when they have it. I have personal knowledge of this attitude from something that happened in my neighbourhood.