SAP’s, Blackjacks, Carnies!

[AJ]

Using two partially filled ones (7 oz each) I'm just shy of a pound. A single fully filled one comes in at 11 oz.

Funny thing the state law here...If using an impact weapon below the shoulders, it remains a level of intermediate/ non deadly force. As soon as a strike is made to the neck and shoulder area though, then it sll becomes lethal force. So...the asset with a sap, baton, etc. Is that it can immediately make that transition if required. The liability is thst you better know what you're doing and have your temper under wraps.

OC is kind of a **** sandwich that everyone gets s bite of-The objective is to make them take a bigger bite than you. I've seen it take half a minute to a full minute to take effect. Heck, when I got sprayed for certification I had plenty of time to subdue and restrain my suspect, and slow walk 25 yards or so before it kicked in. Then it didn't really hurt until I decon'ed. Myzelf and most men I know can do a heckuva lot of damage inside of 30 seconds. Lots can go wrong with wind conditions, small spaces, etc. as well.

Tasers are...interesting. darn sure work most of the time. Test arcing/ drive stun is terrifying. Makes me wince when I'm the one holding it. Problem is getting a good spread from the probes in a dynamic situation. Coats and outer wear are another matter, especially in an Arctic climate. When I was certified, there was a gal behind me that was crying, darn near in a panic. At the end of the line, she had already seen 30-40 something people get hit. I thought that when I got hit, instead of throwing out every enunciation of the F bomb known to man I'd say "It's not so bad" to be encouraging. That came out to roughly "YABBA YAAAARRGGGHHH!!"
I found that I could still move while under power, but no way would I keep up with the folks who weren't under power.

All this to say there are times and places, assets and liabilities to every intermediate force device. The impact weapon has it's as well.

But...all the OC, tasers, ASPs ever made could never equal the old school coolness of these old saps and blackjacks, or the stories told by the old timers who used them.

Taught use of the baton to our auxiliary security force. Drilled into them to never use an overhand motion when using the baton. Always a sidewards swing from the upper arms to the ankles. whatever presented itself. Never, repeat never to the head/neck.

 

[BC38]

I would like y'all to meet "Big Ugly" Big Ugly is 8.5" and 14.5 oz of bipedal recalibration.

"Big Ugly" isn't a reference to size, but rather the amount of crooked stitching and asymmetrical dimensions. It has three layers of leather, a sawzall blade for the spring steel handle, and two lead ingots from a half filled mini muffin tin from back in the days when I was casting my own bullets. It uhmmm...strikes me as being a highly effective impact weapon.

It was a real fun Father/Daughter project. I'm pretty sure we were the only folks in Michael's that were purchasing materials for making a striking implement.

We learned alot. The next one should take much less time and look much nicer!

Big, for sure. Ugly? I guess that's all in the eyes of the beholder.
I'm sure anyone on the receiving end would think it FELT pretty ugly.
For a first attempt it looks pretty good to me. Though at a pound it might be a little on the heavy side, I'm sure it would be quite effective and for self-defense, I'll take function over form any day.

 

[lihpster]

Impact weapons are dual force level weapons, depending on how you use them. Give someone a Tonya Harding love tap and it's not lethal force. Bop them in the bean and it becomes lethal force. That said, if a guy has a knife or a club, I'm swinging away.

 

[charlie sherrill]

Some of my stuff....including this pair of "SAP" gloves which I had never seen before I got these!!

The sap gloves looked like any other pair of gloves until you had to slap someone off of you who was trying to do bodily harm to you. Also, they were very warm on a cold night.

 

[charlie sherrill]

One of the favorite prison weapons is "soap in a sock" or "lock in a sock." A bar of soap in a sock can hurt you or break your face pretty good. A lock in a sock can kill you.

We've got a minimum security prison near here. My ex-neighbor was a resident there. As long as you behaved life wasn't too bad there. One of the residents had a beef with a fellow inmate, found a padlock somewhere, put it in a sock, and won the argument. The victim now gets coloring books for Christmas and the perp is doing hard extra time at a maximum security prison with practically no privileges and visitation.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

Some of my stuff....including this pair of "SAP" gloves which I had never seen before I got these!!

Sap gloves were quite popular during my first decade or so in law enforcement (1970s). Made my a company called Damascus. Basically a pair of unlined work gloves with built-in pouches holding several ounces of powdered lead. Two versions; one with the pouches over the knuckle area, the other with pouches in the palm area. About $20 per pair back in those days, not an insignificant amount.

I carried a Bucheimer spring-loaded sap while working uniform. Our uniform trousers had a built-in sap pocket behind the right leg trouser seam over the upper thigh.

Working plain clothes I used a simple substitute; a roll of nickels tightly duct-taped. Same principle in operation, adding impact energy to a punch or slap.

No cell phones back in the day, so I frequently had to cut into my nickel roll for change to use a pay phone. Another memory: early in my career we were required to always have several thing with us, revolver, extra ammo. handcuffs & key, pens & pencils, and change for pay phones! Might be where I got the idea from. Also, coffee was 5 cents per cup at Sambo's restaurants, 25 cents or more in most others, so you know where the cops went for their coffee.

 

[Doug M.]

Working alone in rural LE as a youngster, I had a P24 (trained with it a lot - did the class at the Academy several times as an intern) and sap gloves. Backup could be a while and often came from other towns or counties, so I could be alone for 10 minutes which is an eternity.
I still have them both.

 

[45Smashemflat]

I’ve had a version like this from D3 Protection. It’s never been used except to whack a table or other object to make a point. That said, I don’t carry it much at all now due to the legal risks.

Might be better to have a more dual use item, like a coin purse or a book weight.

 

[Photog]

ThreeDFlyer's post brought back a very good memory. I worked in a gunshop in Santa Fe, NM from the early 1970's through 1980. A "police buff" came in with a new pair of the Tumb Cuffs. I think they had just been released. We had an ATF agent visting our shop at the same time. Well, the buff wanted to show them off so he got the ATF agent to volunteer to wear them. Put them on, and we were all pretty impressed, even the ATF agent, until, and this is a big until, they jammed and couid not be unlocked. Long story short is that our gunsmith finally was able to remove them with out damaging the ATF guy. The cuffs on the other hand, were a bit less fortunate. I still have to laugh to this day when I think of it.

 

[boykinlp]

ThreeDFlyer's post brought back a very good memory. I worked in a gunshop in Santa Fe, NM from the early 1970's through 1980. A "police buff" came in with a new pair of the Tumb Cuffs. I think they had just been released. We had an ATF agent visting our shop at the same time. Well, the buff wanted to show them off so he got the ATF agent to volunteer to wear them. Put them on, and we were all pretty impressed, even the ATF agent, until, and this is a big until, they jammed and couid not be unlocked. Long story short is that our gunsmith finally was able to remove them with out damaging the ATF guy. The cuffs on the other hand, were a bit less fortunate. I still have to laugh to this day when I think of it.

When looking at the thumb cuffs, I think that they would be EXTREMELY uncomfortable! Were they ever used legally by police, or were they just a civilian novelty?
Larry

 

[BC38]

When looking at the thumb cuffs, I think that they would be EXTREMELY uncomfortable! Were they ever used legally by police, or were they just a civilian novelty?
Larry

I tried a pair on once when I was a teenager.
IIRC, as long as you keep your hands together - palm to palm - they aren't particularly uncomfortable. But if you don't/can't do that then yes, they are very uncomfortable.
I have no idea if they were issued to any US police, but I was told they were used by police forces in other countries. Can't say for sure if that is fact or not, but it is what I was told at the time.

 

[JohnRippert]

Or how about a roll of nickles/quarters being used as a substitute for brass knuckles?

I found that for my hand size a roll of pennies was perfect. I had one wrapped in electrical tape that I kept in the watch pocket of my jeans.


I also have a set of those thumb cuffs that THREEDFLYER had pictured.

Wish I knew what happened to the nice thumper Dad had in his armoire for years.

 

[gunsnrovers]

When I was a paperboy in Hawaii way back, we would take 3 or 4 penny rolls end to end and wrap them together with electrical tape. Good for knocking back aggressive dogs or tagging the glass on cars that got too close.

 

[Faulkner]

When I was a rookie sheriff's deputy back in the late 90's there were a few deputies and state troopers nearing retirement that had saps or blackjacks, but I've not seen an LEO with one in around 20 years.

I was taught to use the steel ASP collapsible baton and it has served me well. The neat thing about the collapsible baton is that it often has a similar attention getting affect as racking a pump shotgun when you pull it out and extend it.