Folterung
Member
Anyone know the pros/cons of semi-wadcutters versus hollowpoints? I know the FBI used 158 grain semi-wadcutters in their .38s, and I have seen Federal Premium and Remington advertise semi-wadcutters as self-defense loads.
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Semi-Wadcutter for self defense?
- Thread starter Folterung
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Sharp-shouldered semi-wadcutters are as effective as they ever were. In the days when hollowpoints were iffy in performance, they were probably most used. Many still carry them.
However, with the new premium hollowpoints that function as advertised, I prefer them over lead for defense. You pays your money and you takes your chances.
However, with the new premium hollowpoints that function as advertised, I prefer them over lead for defense. You pays your money and you takes your chances.
38-44HD45
Absent Comrade
Some of our old Fibbies can correct me if I'm wrong, but the "FBI Loads" I've seen have all been semi-wadcutter hollowpoints. I was actually given several boxes of them by a retired FBI firearms training officer years ago. Conventional wisdom is that the LSWCHPs usually expanded from 3" and 4" barrels, not so much from 2-inchers. Our resident adherents to the "more penetration is always better" school will tell you that SWCs are as good as SWCHPs, or better. I disagree, except when the HPs fail to expand. This has been hashed out ad nauseum in many threads, so I must add......
user
Member
Fanning a sleeping horse?
Spotteddog
Member
Nice lookin' horse John!
There's another gentleman from Texas around here, that actually prefers them in +P from his Model 10.
Erich is more a fan of full wads (at higher than target velocities). But cooks up high grunt SWC's every so often for his .357.
I'm good with either SWC+P, full wad (in my Wife's Ti J currently) or a SWCHP @+P.
There's another gentleman from Texas around here, that actually prefers them in +P from his Model 10.
Erich is more a fan of full wads (at higher than target velocities). But cooks up high grunt SWC's every so often for his .357.
I'm good with either SWC+P, full wad (in my Wife's Ti J currently) or a SWCHP @+P.
Wyatt Earp
Member
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Hollow points?
Semi wadcutters?
As I sit here, with a Model 64 loaded with Buffalo Bore 158 gr +P SWCHPs on my belt, I say: GET BOTH.
Semi wadcutters?
As I sit here, with a Model 64 loaded with Buffalo Bore 158 gr +P SWCHPs on my belt, I say: GET BOTH.
Erich
Member
Actually, I'm carrying Jessie's SWCs in my Chiefs Special today, loaded to better-than-FBI-Load velocities.
So, Folterung, what's with the handle?
Welcome aboard, I think . . .
So, Folterung, what's with the handle?
Hoptob
Member
I too swallowed the bullet ($$$!) and switched to Buffalo FBI load in my Det Spl.
Mike
flop-shank
US Veteran
The semi-wadcutter is the ultimate general purpose bullet. They will work well for defense, hunting, or target shooting. Of nonexpanding bullet types for defense, I prefer wadcutters to SWCs because I believe trying to reload a gun in a gunfight will likely be a waste of time. YMMV. My wife's gun is loaded with .38 wadcutters, but I prefer and use hollowpoints in my carry guns.
Gatofeo
Member
One thing about lead bullets: They can be driven to higher velocity, at the same pressure, than their jacketed counterparts.
The bugaboo is friction generated by the copper jacket.
Don't believe me? Tap a lead bullet down your pistol's bore sometime. Now, try tapping a copper jacketed bullet down the bore. If you get it started, you'll likely need a gunsmith to tap it back out -- so no, I don't recommend you do it but I say it to make a point.
A hard-cast 160 gr. bullet can get an honest 1,400 to 1,500 fps in a heavy-frame .357 Magnum. A jacketed bullet of the same weight strains to reach 1,400 before pressures rise to the intolerable.
Jacketed bullets are also much harder on the bore. Lead bullets do not promote wear and tear nearly as much as jacketed bullets.
I'm old school too. My S&W 637 .38 snubnose is loaded with hard-cast 158 gr. SWCs. They're accurate, hit with a decided thunk, penetrate well and don't depend on expansion to cut a good-sized hole.
The bugaboo is friction generated by the copper jacket.
Don't believe me? Tap a lead bullet down your pistol's bore sometime. Now, try tapping a copper jacketed bullet down the bore. If you get it started, you'll likely need a gunsmith to tap it back out -- so no, I don't recommend you do it but I say it to make a point.
A hard-cast 160 gr. bullet can get an honest 1,400 to 1,500 fps in a heavy-frame .357 Magnum. A jacketed bullet of the same weight strains to reach 1,400 before pressures rise to the intolerable.
Jacketed bullets are also much harder on the bore. Lead bullets do not promote wear and tear nearly as much as jacketed bullets.
I'm old school too. My S&W 637 .38 snubnose is loaded with hard-cast 158 gr. SWCs. They're accurate, hit with a decided thunk, penetrate well and don't depend on expansion to cut a good-sized hole.
Eric,I was at a gun store today looking at the Magtech 158 gr. flat tmj for target practice. with the flatpoint which is covered with brass coloring on the bullet,How are they for defense?????? Or have you tried any Magtech of this type? rz625-8
Erich
Member
Don't generally use store-bought ammo, actually.
Sorry!
Farmer17
Member
I like how a sharp shoulder SWC chops a nice round hole. Some SWC don't have much of a shoulder so probably don't perform as well. Look at a piece of paper target shot by a full wadcutter and think about how it chops or cuts all the tissue in its path. A hollow point might start expanding after impact but won't reach its full diameter potential until several inches later,.... if the cavity doesn't get plugged and it decides to expand at all.
flop-shank
US Veteran
I generally see the signs of expansion within a couple inches when I shoot Perma-Gel. A high modern velocity cartridge will usually expand quite reliably, so I'll put my money on hollowpoints.
.455_Hunter
Member
Out of the posse guns that I own, the "bedroom" gun for my wife and I is 60's production 4" Colt Police Positive Special loaded with Winchester's exceptional standard velocity 158 gr. LSWC. Good stopping power with excellent penetration, low blast and flash.
Spotteddog
Member
OK Erich, I gotta' ask?
What was the significance of his "handle" selection question about, earlier?
Enquiring minds, just got's ta' know?
What was the significance of his "handle" selection question about, earlier?
Enquiring minds, just got's ta' know?
Erich
Member
The guy's name is "torture" in Kraut - I work with real psychos sometimes, and I wondered why on Earth anyone would find that appropriate to represent himself on a forum.
I note that he hasn't bothered to respond.
I note that he hasn't bothered to respond.
LoboGunLeather
US Veteran
Back during the 1970's a bad guy was taken down with one shot from a .38 special out of a 2-inch Model 36. Bullet impact was just below the sternum with penetration downward, nearly perpendicular to the front of the body. Autopsy photos showed much of the small intestine was turned into mush.
The bullet? 148-grain hollow-base wadcutter loaded backward (hollow-base forward) over 3 grains of Bullseye (probably around 700 FPS out of the 2-inch barrel), a target load essentially. Recovered bullet had penetrated about 5 inches before stopping, expanded to over 0.60" diameter, remaining weight over 140 grains.
Coroner said it was the most devastating handgun wound he had ever seen.
Our police range ammo was remanufactured on automated equipment, and the hollow-base ended up loaded this way in a few rounds. The officer involved in the shoot had culled these from range target ammo.
Since then I have loaded and fired many hundreds of that load. They will not penetrate a windshield, but will penetrate side windows easily. They will frequently be deflected by a fully inflated car tire. Residential walls (1/2" drywall on each side) are penetrated, but the bullet will usually be stopped by a second wall. If a 2X4 wall stud is hit the bullet will not go through. A one-gallon milk jug filled with water will stop the bullet, but the plastic jug will be shredded and water will be thrown several feet.
All in all, absolutely devastating for a close-range defensive load, with very little blast or flash. Overpenetration is much less of a concern in residential areas. I recommend it frequently for home defense ammo in the .38 special.
The bullet? 148-grain hollow-base wadcutter loaded backward (hollow-base forward) over 3 grains of Bullseye (probably around 700 FPS out of the 2-inch barrel), a target load essentially. Recovered bullet had penetrated about 5 inches before stopping, expanded to over 0.60" diameter, remaining weight over 140 grains.
Coroner said it was the most devastating handgun wound he had ever seen.
Our police range ammo was remanufactured on automated equipment, and the hollow-base ended up loaded this way in a few rounds. The officer involved in the shoot had culled these from range target ammo.
Since then I have loaded and fired many hundreds of that load. They will not penetrate a windshield, but will penetrate side windows easily. They will frequently be deflected by a fully inflated car tire. Residential walls (1/2" drywall on each side) are penetrated, but the bullet will usually be stopped by a second wall. If a 2X4 wall stud is hit the bullet will not go through. A one-gallon milk jug filled with water will stop the bullet, but the plastic jug will be shredded and water will be thrown several feet.
All in all, absolutely devastating for a close-range defensive load, with very little blast or flash. Overpenetration is much less of a concern in residential areas. I recommend it frequently for home defense ammo in the .38 special.
.455_Hunter
Member
The backwards loaded wadcutters are interesting...
50% of shooters love them, 50% think they are worthless
50% of shooters love them, 50% think they are worthless
