handejector
Staff member
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2005
- Messages
- 26,134
- Reaction score
- 47,036
I'll reopen this thread after I take out the trash.
Stay tuned.
Stay tuned.
Shield is UNSAFE
- Thread starter JW4286
- Start date
handejector
Staff member
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2005
- Messages
- 26,134
- Reaction score
- 47,036
The OP here is understandably upset after a catastrophic failure. Cut him a little slack.
It is completely out of line to label him a troll without obtaining the facts of this event. That is not how we roll here.
If you have something useful to say that is on-topic, and IF you understand and can use common courtesy, have at it.
If not, stay out of it.
It is completely out of line to label him a troll without obtaining the facts of this event. That is not how we roll here.
If you have something useful to say that is on-topic, and IF you understand and can use common courtesy, have at it.
If not, stay out of it.
Having seen several catastrophic failures, this is obvious to me that there was an obstruction in the barrel.
The M&P barrels do not fully support the case. An over pressure round will blow the magazine out of the bottom and crack the frame starting at the middle.
This most likely will not be covered under warranty. Time to buy another gun.
The M&P barrels do not fully support the case. An over pressure round will blow the magazine out of the bottom and crack the frame starting at the middle.
This most likely will not be covered under warranty. Time to buy another gun.
colwhelen1
Member
shield blow up
I had an early Shield in 9mm that blew out the magazine and bulged the frame. Geco fmj factory 124gr bullet.
Of all people my atty was shooting it at the time. Gun seemed Ok but slide would not lock back (did not shoot it again) Mag seemed Ok. Sent the gun to Smith and after while they sent it back same condition. Sent it back and local dealer with some clout got it exchanged for a new one. That one is Ok and my Atty even bought it from me.
I maintain it did not go into battery and fired when it should not have. It stung the shooters hand and blew out the magazine but no other visible damage. The fired casing blew out just in front of the web and the gas was directed down the magwell.
I don't see how you could get enough powder into a 40 or 9mm case to destroy a gun that bad. Definitely get ahold of Smith and Wesson maybe they will help.
I had an early Shield in 9mm that blew out the magazine and bulged the frame. Geco fmj factory 124gr bullet.
Of all people my atty was shooting it at the time. Gun seemed Ok but slide would not lock back (did not shoot it again) Mag seemed Ok. Sent the gun to Smith and after while they sent it back same condition. Sent it back and local dealer with some clout got it exchanged for a new one. That one is Ok and my Atty even bought it from me.
I maintain it did not go into battery and fired when it should not have. It stung the shooters hand and blew out the magazine but no other visible damage. The fired casing blew out just in front of the web and the gas was directed down the magwell.
I don't see how you could get enough powder into a 40 or 9mm case to destroy a gun that bad. Definitely get ahold of Smith and Wesson maybe they will help.
BigDog48
US Veteran
I'm glad you came back to explain some of the details. While we're waiting for you to hear (I assume) from S&W, how about specifically filling us in on the details of the ammo (make, weight, etc.), so we can avoid it, in case it was the problem.
Late Comment
I too would agree that this handgun failure was the result of ammunition that was either dangerously overloaded or the result of firing a live round after a squib load went unnoticed, leaving a bullet in the barrel.
It's not your fault or the gun's fault. It takes years to become thoroughly experienced with any endeavor and if a squib load is involved, failing to check the gun after an unusual report is largely the result of inexperience, not incompetence.
I too would agree that this handgun failure was the result of ammunition that was either dangerously overloaded or the result of firing a live round after a squib load went unnoticed, leaving a bullet in the barrel.
It's not your fault or the gun's fault. It takes years to become thoroughly experienced with any endeavor and if a squib load is involved, failing to check the gun after an unusual report is largely the result of inexperience, not incompetence.
Last edited:
handejector
Staff member
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2005
- Messages
- 26,134
- Reaction score
- 47,036
We have a simultaneous failure of all three major components- barrel, frame, and slide.
That is obviously from an extremely overpressure event.
I don't think it is from a squib. The pressure in that round was so high, I'm wondering if it was merely a double charge, or much more potent than that.
That is obviously from an extremely overpressure event.
I don't think it is from a squib. The pressure in that round was so high, I'm wondering if it was merely a double charge, or much more potent than that.
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2007
- Messages
- 27,669
- Reaction score
- 21,359
Sorry for your troubles and glad no one was seriously injured.
On a practical level, speak with S & W customer service and relate the incident to them as neutrally as possible. They will want to inspect the gun and likely the reloads. Their response may range from an outright replacement, to offering a new one at a discount, all the way to denying your claim because reloaded ammunition was used. Please let us know what happens.
On a practical level, speak with S & W customer service and relate the incident to them as neutrally as possible. They will want to inspect the gun and likely the reloads. Their response may range from an outright replacement, to offering a new one at a discount, all the way to denying your claim because reloaded ammunition was used. Please let us know what happens.
I'm wondering if this is a case of a shooter doing the tap rack immediate action drill that is taught in gun fighting classes.
Great reflex to have if someone is trying to hurt you but really bad when there isn't a threat and there is a problem.
I question the ammo, either the shot before or the shot that took it apart.
Great reflex to have if someone is trying to hurt you but really bad when there isn't a threat and there is a problem.
I question the ammo, either the shot before or the shot that took it apart.
I quit with......
I bought some 'factory reloads' a long time ago and quit with them right then. Some were like toy caps. Others were definitely +P and I never knew which one.
I believe that the 'factory' was a guy in a garage with an electric progressive press. I'm not saying that's the final work, but I'd sure blame the ammo before the gun. I need to find out more about the track record of the Shield, but I know that a million of them are out there, and I've heard of some problems but I haven't heard of a catastrophic event as that. Considering the extensive damage done even to the magazine and totally blew out the barrel, I believe it was a double charge, or more, of fast powder. Even a too hot load wouldn't blow a gun to pieces like that.
I bought some 'factory reloads' a long time ago and quit with them right then. Some were like toy caps. Others were definitely +P and I never knew which one.
I believe that the 'factory' was a guy in a garage with an electric progressive press. I'm not saying that's the final work, but I'd sure blame the ammo before the gun. I need to find out more about the track record of the Shield, but I know that a million of them are out there, and I've heard of some problems but I haven't heard of a catastrophic event as that. Considering the extensive damage done even to the magazine and totally blew out the barrel, I believe it was a double charge, or more, of fast powder. Even a too hot load wouldn't blow a gun to pieces like that.
Last edited:
Which models....
Which models/vintages of M&P don't support the cartridge fully??? I just got a Shield and when I plunk test, the only part of the cartridge showing is the rim so the extractor can catch it. I'll go look at it again but I'm sure that's right.
Which models/vintages of M&P don't support the cartridge fully??? I just got a Shield and when I plunk test, the only part of the cartridge showing is the rim so the extractor can catch it. I'll go look at it again but I'm sure that's right.
Please don't..
Please don't get this thread locked. There's way too much good info here. We can sort out the bad info but we need to hear it first.
Please don't get this thread locked. There's way too much good info here. We can sort out the bad info but we need to hear it first.
twistedracer
Member
OP can you please tell us what factory reloads you were using?
Brand? Bullet weight?
This question has been asked here several times with no answer. All we know is that it was 40 cal.
Brand? Bullet weight?
This question has been asked here several times with no answer. All we know is that it was 40 cal.
Doug M.
Member
The quality of "factory reloads" is like any other round - depends on the factory. I have some XXXXXXX XXXX ammo that I will use up and never buy from them again, because there are indicators of less QC than I like. (My opinion, and not an invite to a thread drift.) I use Black Hills reman ammo, a fair amount of it, and it is generally my only training ammo. Never a problem, and I have complete confidence in it.
I am not a fan of the .40, for lots of reasons, so I am unlikely to buy any pistol in the caliber, but I have seen enough reports of problems with the .40 Shields that I would be more hesitant. The .40 has a significant reputation for a narrow window of pressure errors before a real problem occurs. Wrong powder, or a bit of case setback (doesn't take much), and you can have a heck of a problem. It is pretty well documented as a non-trivial issue in the .40 Glocks (which have enough other problems I wound't have one of them, either).
I am not a metallurgist or a physicist, but I would bet a lot of money that those who are telling you it is an ammo problem are right. It looks to me as if the explosion (which technically what happens when we fire a shot) was WAY WAY more than the pistol could handle. It is far more likely that the issue is an over-pressure event of some type than a pistol flaw, but I can't blame the OP for being very angry and frustrated.
I am not a fan of the .40, for lots of reasons, so I am unlikely to buy any pistol in the caliber, but I have seen enough reports of problems with the .40 Shields that I would be more hesitant. The .40 has a significant reputation for a narrow window of pressure errors before a real problem occurs. Wrong powder, or a bit of case setback (doesn't take much), and you can have a heck of a problem. It is pretty well documented as a non-trivial issue in the .40 Glocks (which have enough other problems I wound't have one of them, either).
I am not a metallurgist or a physicist, but I would bet a lot of money that those who are telling you it is an ammo problem are right. It looks to me as if the explosion (which technically what happens when we fire a shot) was WAY WAY more than the pistol could handle. It is far more likely that the issue is an over-pressure event of some type than a pistol flaw, but I can't blame the OP for being very angry and frustrated.
Ed Fowler
Member
First off I am sorry it happened to you and yours, and glad no serious injury was incurred.
I was at the factory on the range when a Mod 39 experienced a very heavy overload. It blew the magazine loose, and the grips were splintered.
Other than a little spanking the shooters hand was undamaged. Maynard said the mod 39s and Smith & Wessons in general were designed and constructed with the safety of the shooter in mind. All he had to do was clean and put new grips on her and she was back on the firing line.
I have witnessed other blow ups, this is the first where a person could have been injured. Would like to see a photo of his hand, just maybe it was not a serious injury.
I was at the factory on the range when a Mod 39 experienced a very heavy overload. It blew the magazine loose, and the grips were splintered.
Other than a little spanking the shooters hand was undamaged. Maynard said the mod 39s and Smith & Wessons in general were designed and constructed with the safety of the shooter in mind. All he had to do was clean and put new grips on her and she was back on the firing line.
I have witnessed other blow ups, this is the first where a person could have been injured. Would like to see a photo of his hand, just maybe it was not a serious injury.
99.9% certainty that this is a detonation of the ammo.
Reasoning: the complete opening of barrel and slide isn't going to occur if the chamber merely blows open. In other words, a chunk or two might come out, but not half the barrel. And that would require that ALL the parts that split would have to fail at the same time, which is really not likely. The splitting of at least 2 layers of parts most resembles an explosion from within. Either way, S&W will want to see and test your pistol.
We all make assumptions about things, and we all get angry about things, too. I'm not one of those that will judge a person (usually) from their reaction to a catastrophic event. It is what it is. I hope that you'll come back and let us know the result of the investigation, so we can learn from it too. Good luck!!!
Reasoning: the complete opening of barrel and slide isn't going to occur if the chamber merely blows open. In other words, a chunk or two might come out, but not half the barrel. And that would require that ALL the parts that split would have to fail at the same time, which is really not likely. The splitting of at least 2 layers of parts most resembles an explosion from within. Either way, S&W will want to see and test your pistol.
We all make assumptions about things, and we all get angry about things, too. I'm not one of those that will judge a person (usually) from their reaction to a catastrophic event. It is what it is. I hope that you'll come back and let us know the result of the investigation, so we can learn from it too. Good luck!!!
WGSNewnan19
Member
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2011
- Messages
- 132
- Reaction score
- 64
Im not one to judge a person either unless they refuse to answer basic questions about what might have happened.
Ball is in your court OP.
Ball is in your court OP.
Another possibility to be considered is whether any smaller caliber ammunition was at hand that might've been loaded into the magazine.
For example in this case was there any 9mm on the table, or might a 9mm round have been mixed in with the reloaded .40's? (A wrong caliber round can sometimes find its way into even a box of new factory ammo.)
I've seen occasional instances where someone mistakenly loaded a .40 in a .45 magazine, or a 9mm in a .40 magazine. Sometimes the extractor might catch and hold the undersize round, and the case gets ballooned and split when the firing pin hits the primer, or, I've seen someone try to chamber what turned out to be a .40 in a .45, and watched the whole unfired cartridge fall out the muzzle.
Now, imagine for a second what can happen if the .40 round gets pushed forward of the chamber and is just sitting inside the bore when a .45 round is chambered and fired. I've handled a plastic .45 that had suffered significant damage because a .40 was lodged in the bore when a live round was fired behind it.
I've also heard that it's not exactly a rare thing for a gun company to learn of this happening with one of their products.
Sometimes it's difficult (or impossible) to determine if the wrong ammunition was being used, and sometimes it's possible when the evidence remains inside the bore.
Not intimating this happened in this case, but it's happened before, and it'll probably happen again. Something to consider, and a good reason to carefully inspect each round being loaded in a magazine, regardless of what it might say on the box or bag label.
The important thing is that the person using the gun, and anyone around him, weren't seriously injured. Guns can be replaced.
FWIW, I remember when we first transitioned to the early 5903's/6906's. Budget constraints forced us to use commercially produced remanufactured LRN 9mm ammo. I was on the range one day when one of our guys shooting his new 5903 had a problem with a round that blew out a case. It stung his hand a bit, and I think it may have caused the magazine to drop. He was pretty startled (and not a little agitated), but fortunately he was uninjured and the gun was undamaged.
It was immediately used as an example of why we needed to spend the little extra money it cost to buy new factory ball for training & quals. We got the money.
For example in this case was there any 9mm on the table, or might a 9mm round have been mixed in with the reloaded .40's? (A wrong caliber round can sometimes find its way into even a box of new factory ammo.)
I've seen occasional instances where someone mistakenly loaded a .40 in a .45 magazine, or a 9mm in a .40 magazine. Sometimes the extractor might catch and hold the undersize round, and the case gets ballooned and split when the firing pin hits the primer, or, I've seen someone try to chamber what turned out to be a .40 in a .45, and watched the whole unfired cartridge fall out the muzzle.
Now, imagine for a second what can happen if the .40 round gets pushed forward of the chamber and is just sitting inside the bore when a .45 round is chambered and fired. I've handled a plastic .45 that had suffered significant damage because a .40 was lodged in the bore when a live round was fired behind it.
I've also heard that it's not exactly a rare thing for a gun company to learn of this happening with one of their products.
Sometimes it's difficult (or impossible) to determine if the wrong ammunition was being used, and sometimes it's possible when the evidence remains inside the bore.
Not intimating this happened in this case, but it's happened before, and it'll probably happen again. Something to consider, and a good reason to carefully inspect each round being loaded in a magazine, regardless of what it might say on the box or bag label.
The important thing is that the person using the gun, and anyone around him, weren't seriously injured. Guns can be replaced.
FWIW, I remember when we first transitioned to the early 5903's/6906's. Budget constraints forced us to use commercially produced remanufactured LRN 9mm ammo. I was on the range one day when one of our guys shooting his new 5903 had a problem with a round that blew out a case. It stung his hand a bit, and I think it may have caused the magazine to drop. He was pretty startled (and not a little agitated), but fortunately he was uninjured and the gun was undamaged.
It was immediately used as an example of why we needed to spend the little extra money it cost to buy new factory ball for training & quals. We got the money.
It is VERY rare for a failure like that to be gun related. I have had a squibb in my BG380 and being as it still ejected the case, I fired again. The gun survived as well as the barrel. Still have the bullet even... Barrel seems to be fine. Case didn't bulge or anything. Bullet was found in front of the target, no impact damage. Got lucky. Bullet that actually fired after the squibb even still landed on target.
It was a box of Fiocchi 380ACP 95gr Brass Jacketed. I had problems with the whole box of Fiocchi.
I had bought 2 boxes of but returned the 2nd box for a box of Federal Champion AE380ACP LOT#H09035. Best 380ACP FMJ rounds I have. From this point forward, I custom order from Hornady or buy Federal Champion from Midway.
Moral of the story- Know your ammo.
It was a box of Fiocchi 380ACP 95gr Brass Jacketed. I had problems with the whole box of Fiocchi.
I had bought 2 boxes of but returned the 2nd box for a box of Federal Champion AE380ACP LOT#H09035. Best 380ACP FMJ rounds I have. From this point forward, I custom order from Hornady or buy Federal Champion from Midway.
Moral of the story- Know your ammo.
Last edited:
uechikid
Member
What brand, bullet weight, and lot number was the ammo you were using?
Similar threads
- Locked
