"No Name" reloads???
"No Name" reloads packed in Mason Jars?
"No Name" reloads packed in Mason Jars?
Shield is UNSAFE
- Thread starter JW4286
- Start date
Until we know this, we know nothing.
Arik
Member
No they dont
Arik
Member
Just wondering. What's the difference between factory ammo and factory reloads?
Jim1392
US Veteran
I'm far from an expert and I don't own a Shield 40 but the key word I keep seeing every time this subject comes up is "reloads". I have yet to see someone say "I was shooting Speer Gold Dots 124grain and my Shield blew up". Now if it was a squib that's another ball game.
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MichiganScott
Member
I'm not a metallurgist, so any comment I have is supposition. I've seen enough guns over the years that have spontaneously disassembled to be fairly certain the destruction of the OP's gun was not caused by a barrel obstruction from a squib. That much destruction is caused by a hyper pressure event.
Most commercial loaders load the fastest powder that gets the performance they want. If they get functional reloads with 5.8gr of Bullseye or 7.8 grains of Power Pistol, they are going to use Bullseye. An additional 309 reloads per pound is just that much more profit. It's easier to double or triple charge a case with a faster powder.
I don't reload .40's, so I don't know if you could get a double or triple charge of Bullseye in the case, but I'm betting that's the cause of the failure.
Most commercial loaders load the fastest powder that gets the performance they want. If they get functional reloads with 5.8gr of Bullseye or 7.8 grains of Power Pistol, they are going to use Bullseye. An additional 309 reloads per pound is just that much more profit. It's easier to double or triple charge a case with a faster powder.
I don't reload .40's, so I don't know if you could get a double or triple charge of Bullseye in the case, but I'm betting that's the cause of the failure.
That's about as nasty as it gets, glad to hear your brother has all his digits.
I'm with the over pressure theorists. Let us know what Smith says.
I'm with the over pressure theorists. Let us know what Smith says.
alleycat7002
Member
Why i like 9mm..and i dont use reloads...probably the problem.and if is your on your own...my sheild 9mm is flawless.
scooter123
Member
With that level of destruction this was without doubt an overload, a rather severe overload. I would suggest that you not even waste a minute contacting S&W, you need to go straight to the ammunition manufacturer and ask for contact information for their insurer. Because you are not only owed the funds for a new pistol your brother is owed for Pain, Suffering, and Medical Care.
As for how this could happen, before this thread was locked yesterday I did some looking into how it could happen using Titegroup as an example. BTW, Titegroup is quite popular with high volume reloaders because it's very economical with distinctly low charge weights per load.
So, according to the Lee 2nd the useable volume of the 40 caliber case is 0.69cc with a 180 grain bullet installed to an overall length of 1.125 inch. By my measurement using a cheap syringe purchased at a gun show as a grease applicator the total volume of a 40 caliber case is approx 1.1cc. The maximum charge for a 180 grain bullet using Titegroup is 4.7 grains and that charge has a total volume of 0.40cc. So, right off you can load a 72% overcharge before you start to compress the powder charge. Put a double charge into the case and visually it will only appear a bit more than 2/3 full, so a double charge of Titegroup will fit easily with no chance of overflowing the case.
What I suspect happened is that the reloader was using a progressive press and he was interrupted or distracted at the point where the press is indexed. As a result the handle on the press was pulled twice without the shell plate on the press indexing between pulls. The result of doing this is a double charged case with the result of exactly what you have posted in your pictures.
It's why I do not have one single bottle of Titegroup in my powder inventory. Even after starting to reload the 380 ACP recently and with Titegroup being a nearly ideal powder for this caliber. Because this particular powder has a distinct reputation for being involved in overcharge events. If you want to see actual examples of this, simply do a google search for "Titegroup overcharge" and you'll find over 3000 results. BTW, I'll leave you to sort through those results but expect you'll find many similar to what happened to your pistol.
As for how this could happen, before this thread was locked yesterday I did some looking into how it could happen using Titegroup as an example. BTW, Titegroup is quite popular with high volume reloaders because it's very economical with distinctly low charge weights per load.
So, according to the Lee 2nd the useable volume of the 40 caliber case is 0.69cc with a 180 grain bullet installed to an overall length of 1.125 inch. By my measurement using a cheap syringe purchased at a gun show as a grease applicator the total volume of a 40 caliber case is approx 1.1cc. The maximum charge for a 180 grain bullet using Titegroup is 4.7 grains and that charge has a total volume of 0.40cc. So, right off you can load a 72% overcharge before you start to compress the powder charge. Put a double charge into the case and visually it will only appear a bit more than 2/3 full, so a double charge of Titegroup will fit easily with no chance of overflowing the case.
What I suspect happened is that the reloader was using a progressive press and he was interrupted or distracted at the point where the press is indexed. As a result the handle on the press was pulled twice without the shell plate on the press indexing between pulls. The result of doing this is a double charged case with the result of exactly what you have posted in your pictures.
It's why I do not have one single bottle of Titegroup in my powder inventory. Even after starting to reload the 380 ACP recently and with Titegroup being a nearly ideal powder for this caliber. Because this particular powder has a distinct reputation for being involved in overcharge events. If you want to see actual examples of this, simply do a google search for "Titegroup overcharge" and you'll find over 3000 results. BTW, I'll leave you to sort through those results but expect you'll find many similar to what happened to your pistol.
HOUSTON RICK
Member
Sorry that you had this negative experience, my experience is that other people's reloads are risky, and the best practice, according to my own negative experiences, is to avoid other people's ("factory" or otherwise) reloads when possible. Put yourself in the manufacturer's place and think of all the testing that goes into a firearm before it is released. While no one is perfect, too much pressure in the ammo or some type of (partial) blockage from improperly performing ammo are your likely culprits. S&W sells a lot of these Shields because people like them and they get great reviews for their price range. Whatever it is, I hope that your problem is cleared up rapidly. I like Scooter's advice. Good luck!
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Op...lots of bad guns being sold nowadays. Bot a Glock 42, jams up and refuses to eject 5 types of ammo. Still waiting for Glock to pick it up after 3 weeks. Ruger LCR .327, it jams up right out of the box.
Snapshots : Photo
Was going to buy a Kahr 380. An acquaintance had one and it jammed all the time.
I pretty much stick with SW snubs now. Never a problem.
Snapshots : Photo
Was going to buy a Kahr 380. An acquaintance had one and it jammed all the time.
I pretty much stick with SW snubs now. Never a problem.
OP said "factory reloads", which sounds like a lot like "re-manufactured".
Arik - difference being that the brass is not new, first use in the case of reman.
And we should all remember the lot of Winchester M-22 that was recalled because there were double charges of powder. The only way a manufacturer, new or reman, is going to be aware of an issue is reports from their own QC or the field, so at least report the load and lot number to them.
Arik - difference being that the brass is not new, first use in the case of reman.
And we should all remember the lot of Winchester M-22 that was recalled because there were double charges of powder. The only way a manufacturer, new or reman, is going to be aware of an issue is reports from their own QC or the field, so at least report the load and lot number to them.
Okay, now I'm confused.
What does the term "factory reloads" mean? How are "factory reloads" different than what all those reloader folks are selling at the gun shows? Does "factory reloads" just mean any reload that is not a home-made reload? 
Ed Fowler
Member
Does anyone know what steel S & W uses for the barrels of this model of Shield?
Okay, now I'm confused.
I have always used "factory reload" to connote rounds made using previously fired brass in a factory that also makes new ammunition. I could be way off base here . . .
WGSNewnan19
Member
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some ammo producers use once fired brass in their "factory reloads" sold at a discount. Freedom Munitions being one There are many others.
They are supposedly loaded on the same machinery as the new rounds.
IMHO - there is absolutely no way for any of these companies to be absolutely sure the brass is once fired as many of them buy or trade in brass from their customers.
I will say this - my home loads are far more consistent than any factory load regardless of terminology. Dont believe me - bust open a box of your favorite load and disassemble a few rounds. you will be amazed at how much variance is acceptable to them. bullet weight, case length, powder charge, and mostly OAL.
They are supposedly loaded on the same machinery as the new rounds.
IMHO - there is absolutely no way for any of these companies to be absolutely sure the brass is once fired as many of them buy or trade in brass from their customers.
I will say this - my home loads are far more consistent than any factory load regardless of terminology. Dont believe me - bust open a box of your favorite load and disassemble a few rounds. you will be amazed at how much variance is acceptable to them. bullet weight, case length, powder charge, and mostly OAL.
Deadeye Dick
Member
"They know this is a problem and keep selling these things." That's a pretty damning statement. What proof does the OP have to back up such a statement? I understand that he is upset and for good reason but statements like this are unwarranted and don't help get to the root of the problem.
I seriously doubt any manufacturer of modern firearms are knowingly selling unsafe products in this day and age of litigation. Yes their have been a few instances of early production runs of some models that have had issues (Beretta M9 slide failures and .40 Cal. GLOCK chamber failures come to mind) but the manufacturers were quick to recall the products and make changes to future runs once the problems were identified.
Oh, occasionally a defective run of parts may pop up but 99.9% of all the millions of firearms sold have proven safe to shoot. And probably of the .1% that do experience catastrophic failures 99.9% of those can be traced back to an ammo issue or operator error.
I hope that the OP follows up on this with S&W and the ammo manufacturer and keeps us informed as to their findings.
I seriously doubt any manufacturer of modern firearms are knowingly selling unsafe products in this day and age of litigation. Yes their have been a few instances of early production runs of some models that have had issues (Beretta M9 slide failures and .40 Cal. GLOCK chamber failures come to mind) but the manufacturers were quick to recall the products and make changes to future runs once the problems were identified.
Oh, occasionally a defective run of parts may pop up but 99.9% of all the millions of firearms sold have proven safe to shoot. And probably of the .1% that do experience catastrophic failures 99.9% of those can be traced back to an ammo issue or operator error.
I hope that the OP follows up on this with S&W and the ammo manufacturer and keeps us informed as to their findings.
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Not sure what happened here, but TTSH's original text won't "quote". He asks the difference between "reloads" and "factory reloads".
Factory reloads and Re-manufactured/reman are produced by a business that reloads used casings in a factory environment. There should be established processes, quality control, and liability insurance.
What the home/garage reloaders sell are just "reloads", no matter how good or what equipment is used. That is not to say that there are not home reloads that are better than factory reloads. It is just the business environment.
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BigDog48
US Veteran
Please, JW4286 (the OP)....
Can you PLEASE tell us the facts about the ammo -- manufacturer, bullet weight, etc.
Other people may have bought some and may be at risk. I am very sympathetic to your situation and very glad your brother was not more seriously injured, but can you share that ammo information for the sake of the .40 caliber shooting community(I think you confirmed it was a .40)?!?
Can you PLEASE tell us the facts about the ammo -- manufacturer, bullet weight, etc.
Other people may have bought some and may be at risk. I am very sympathetic to your situation and very glad your brother was not more seriously injured, but can you share that ammo information for the sake of the .40 caliber shooting community(I think you confirmed it was a .40)?!?
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