Short Barrel Shotgun

[Law-dog]

I've asked that question, too. I suppose jurisdictions matter as w/ most details involving shootings.
As regards "warning shots" I've often wondered if part of a solid home defense plan would involve a stack of old phone books in a corner where in the event a threat occurs to enter but as yet has not occurred, a few shots preceded by and followed by yelling "Don't come thru that door!" could be fired.

My take is no. A single warning shot sends the message. If you fire a bunch of rounds, a jury would question your decision making. And, they need to be fired a different direction, totally away from the door. So, there is zero question in the mind of the jury that it was intended to put the bad guy on notice, nothing more.

Your goal is to convince police, a DA and possibly a jury that your only intent was to stop deadly force. You choose to fire one round of the ammo in your gun as a warning to stop the violence. It all has to sound reasonable to those guys, not to a group of gun guys like us.

 

[RichCapeCod]

Mr. Rosenthal, I'm old and senile, but I'm certain I recall your byline in some of the gun mags? Am I misremembering? Thanks, DVC

Dear "Old and Senile" yeah, I wrote mostly for Combat Handguns. One example below. I had a range on my property (believe it or not, 50 miles north/west of NYC in Orange County NY. Lived on 10 acres of forest land.) Thus testing firearms was a cinch. And the editor of the mag liked me!

Rich
(likely Older and More Senile than you!!)

 

[RichCapeCod]

Thanks for that! I've been doing my best, for my whole life, to try and explain home defense shotguns, and you just put out a good visual for that. Outstanding!
00 buck is a great standard, though with years of use, I favor the 4 buck.
I saw the xrays of a man shot on New Year's eve with 00 years ago, you could count all nine pellets in his chest xray. He was still alive!

You have to remember, 00 buck pellets weigh around 54 grains (can you say .25 ACP!). Velocity will be around 1,200 fps, so if all pellets impact the target they'd be hit with either 9 or 12 .25 ACP equivalent rounds. Just sayin'...

Rich

 

[majick47]

Well, that barrel is no Norinco AK...

As far as the Mossberg 500 goes, while it's true that the Winchester 1300 "Defender" is currently manufactured in Turkey, the Mossberg 500's made right here in the good ol' USA ... in either Eagle Pass, TX and/or North Haven, CT.

The 1980s S&W 3000 police shotgun deserves at least an honorable mention. Made by Howa Japan the S&W 3000 was at least the equal of the Remington 870 if not better in some areas.

 

[dvc45acp]

Dear "Old and Senile" yeah, I wrote mostly for Combat Handguns. One example below. I had a range on my property (believe it or not, 50 miles north/west of NYC in Orange County NY. Lived on 10 acres of forest land.) Thus testing firearms was a cinch. And the editor of the mag liked me!

Rich
(likely Older and More Senile than you!!)

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I've still got that copy! I'll be 75 in Oct. I think at some point, the difference in age becomes irrelevant. We're just real darn old! Thanks for replying. Hope you're doing well Sir. Ed

 

[wundudnee]

The ones that started the shorter barrel shotguns, Model 12 Winchesters. My military Bubba gun and a cut down. Both 20", One 103 years old and the other about 80.

 

[DixieRanger]

Like the Mossburg Shockwave. Not a 'shotgun but a 'firearm'. Folks that got this 14in with handel approved by ATF are genius. Saw coupla days ago silencers for shotgun. Big boxey rectangular contraptions.

 

[Kal.38]

Dear "Old and Senile" yeah, I wrote mostly for Combat Handguns. One example below. I had a range on my property (believe it or not, 50 miles north/west of NYC in Orange County NY. Lived on 10 acres of forest land.) Thus testing firearms was a cinch. And the editor of the mag liked me!

Rich
(likely Older and More Senile than you!!)

View attachment 776457

View attachment 776458

Small world Mr. Rosenthal.
I'm from Orange County. My grandparents lived in Goshen and Pop worked out of troop F.
Still can't believe how many people don't know NY state is 80% farmland.

 

[rockquarry]

For actual use, do any of those shotguns discussed /depicted really offer anything over a plain 870 pump (or similar Winchester, etc.) 20" with a 4 round magazine capacity? No floodlights, optic sights, extra ammo, forward grips or other gadgets of questionable worth...

 

[RichCapeCod]

Small world Mr. Rosenthal.
I'm from Orange County. My grandparents lived in Goshen and Pop worked out of troop F.
Still can't believe how many people don't know NY state is 80% farmland.

Lived in Warwick, off Continental Road, near the Appalachian Trail. An honest 9 miles of forest abutted our home there, well into NJ.

Rich

 

[majick47]

For actual use, do any of those shotguns discussed /depicted really offer anything over a plain 870 pump (or similar Winchester, etc.) 20" with a 4 round magazine capacity? No floodlights, optic sights, extra ammo, forward grips or other gadgets of questionable worth...

rockquarry I'm also in the camp of keeping a shotgun simple, barebones and uncomplicated. It worked for the US military for 110 years.

 

[Hoot]

Each to their own, but I'm taking advantage of every gadget that makes sense to me, for my situation.

Weapon light means I don't have to carry a separate flashlight (although I do), laser means I don't have to have the gun at eye level to aim, extra ammo is never a bad thing (unless you're swimming). Optics I have on rifles, and I'm playing with them on handguns. Still learning those. Takes a bit of retraining to overcome 60 years of old habits. Lights and lasers on handguns as well.

As for the military, they have more gadgets now than ever before. And they have proven themselves useful, in all kinds of serious situations. Lights, lasers, night vision, electric jammers, and more, all stuff that they didn't have a century ago, and it all helps to save our guys, and eliminate the bad guys.

 

[rockquarry]

rockquarry I'm also in the camp of keeping a shotgun simple, barebones and uncomplicated. It worked for the US military for 110 years.

Good for you. Not everyone is a gadgeteer, obsessed with after market add-ons, useful or not. Simple works well and the simpletons may be able to outshoot the gimcrackers. The latter might get distracted worrying about battery life and other important things.

 

[docbrazos]

Yes we know. The OP has the paperwork already. Hence the suggestions.

I'll be SBSing my Tac-14 After the first of the year! they already know who I am, 1 more NFA Item won't matter won't matter. Whether I add Rem chokes is a different matter.

 

[wood714]

Finished it today. I cut the barrel myself, and had a friend with a wood shop shorten the stocks LOP from 14" to 12". Added a magnetic fiber optic front sight that goes over the rib on the barrel.

It came out exactly like I wanted. If I get bored with this look, I can swap barrels and stocks.

 

[Hoot]

Not exactly your grandfathers Winchester Model 1897 Trench Gun;

Benelli M4 Super 90 (M1014 JSCS)

History The Italian Benelli M4 "Super 90" 12 caliber semi-automatic shotgun was adopted by the US military after extensive testing, where the US Army attempted to improve its line of shotguns in the late 1990s. In 1999 the Benelli Armi S. p. A. design officially entered service as the

tvd.im

 

[44MOshooter]

It is a 520A. Nice double hump, Sears was the Ranger line iirc. Those are New England Westinghouse made. Earlier models are marked J Stevens Arms and Tool 1909 to 1916. Westinghouse changed the name to J Stevens Arms Company in 1916. They used the Chicopee Falls Mass plant to make them. That same plant made Mosins for the Russian Czar around the same time. Westinghouse then sold the Stevens line to Savage Arms in 1920.
This is my double hump.
A first year 1916 RiverSide Arms, Chicopee Falls Mass. 520 with the old style suicide safety and original inertia block locking system. It's a 16ga takedown.View attachment 776307View attachment 776304View attachment 776306

Thanks for the information
I also have a Western Field and another Sears Ranger, that both have the "suicide safety" both are 12 gauge.
I bought a J Stevens Arms and Tool Co. model 235, that was exactly like my grandfather's model 235 shotgun.

 

[HardToHandle]

Not exactly your grandfathers Winchester Model 1897 Trench Gun;

View attachment 776938

Benelli M4 Super 90 (M1014 JSCS)

History The Italian Benelli M4 "Super 90" 12 caliber semi-automatic shotgun was adopted by the US military after extensive testing, where the US Army attempted to improve its line of shotguns in the late 1990s. In 1999 the Benelli Armi S. p. A. design officially entered service as the

tvd.im

Yes the U.S. Dept. Of Defense moved to new fangled semi auto guns, especially the Marine Corps, over 20 years ago. Orders started to ship in late 2001 IIRC.

I had a memorable meeting with one of the new M1014 shotguns at the Navy Yard in November 2003. It was held at low ready by a particularly grim looking Marine sentry.

I was mostly impressed he had the newest, cool guy gun. I was supposed to go somewhere else, in a hurry, so didn't ask to handle the new shotgun.

Of course, the Navy Yard is where the Commandant lives. Hence why the new hotness was available.

 

[Law-dog]

Yes the U.S. Dept. Of Defense moved to new fangled semi auto guns, especially the Marine Corps, over 20 years ago. Orders started to ship in late 2001 IIRC.

I had a memorable meeting with one of the new M1014 shotguns at the Navy Yard in November 2003. It was held at low ready by a particularly grim looking Marine sentry.

I was mostly impressed he had the newest, cool guy gun. I was supposed to go somewhere else, in a hurry, so didn't ask to handle the new shotgun.

Of course, the Navy Yard is where the Commandant lives. Hence why the new hotness was available.

Semi auto shotguns today can be 100% reliable, just like ARs and handguns. There is always a risk in a battle or gun fight or skirmish that you might fall and injure your hand or arm, or you could even get shot or knife during an encounter. A semi auto is a design that gives added protection for those more violent events.

The gun under my bed is the same pump gun I carried in local and state law enforcement long ago. But if I were in law enforcement today, or really thought I might have a violent attack that would best be met with a shotgun, I would dump the pump gun in a heartbeat and carry a short semi auto. And you can shoot them faster, if you happen to have more than two attackers....and that does happen.

 

[Kal.38]

Thanks for the information
I also have a Western Field and another Sears Ranger, that both have the "suicide safety" both are 12 gauge.
I bought a J Stevens Arms and Tool Co. model 235, that was exactly like my grandfather's model 235 shotgun.
View attachment 777030

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Beautiful 235.
I also have a Western Field 520-30 but it's from the 40s. Is your early style Western Field "Browning" marked? It was only done 1933-1937 and some latter Ranger models are marked "Browning Patent" or "Browning Design" on Sears guns.