Sig found liable for gun discharge

That's a scary finding. Few firearms have a "trigger safety", no revolvers have one. If this stands it opens the door for product liability cases for all firearms manufacturers.

Some years back Glock was sued for NDs. Turned out in most cases something snagged the trigger when it was being reholstered. As we all know, Glock kind of invented the "trigger safety"....

A few nuggets stood out to me as I read through the article - the first being the quote "including the lack of a trigger safety", meaning it was was just one of the causes that led to the discharge in question.

The next thing was that there were two other separate but substantially similar incidents that Sig settled out of court, so this is not a sole occurrence.

The last thing is that the article mentions the version of the pistol used by the military has an external safety, but according to Sig's own website there are many versions of this gun that has no trigger or external safety at all. Sig is very explicit in warning about this on their site.

Now I only know what I've read here, but just based on what little info is available to me I could see where Sig would lose this case.
 
...A few nuggets stood out to me as I read through the article...Sig settled out of court, so this is not a sole occurrence....
Well, FWIW, settling out of court is a common tactic chosen by corporations who are sued for what they believe to be frivolous reasons. The calculus can be, depending on circumstances, of course, that the cost of litigating to achieve a not guilty verdict exceeds the cost of an out of court payment settlement to get lost.

E.g., I know a lawyer who, many years ago, worked for Sea World in Florida. A customer/visitor/tourist sued, saying that her use of a Namu-the-killer-whale baby carriage, upon which she had tripped and fallen, ruined her sex life. She sued for an exorbitant amount of money.

The lawyer, looking the situation over, considering the costs of litigation, said to the woman, "How about we give you $2000 and you go away?"

She accepted. Game over.

Of course, it is a judgement call. If word gets out that a corporation is a light touch, better to fight it.
 
I have a Sig M17, Sig P320 Compact, Sig P320x, Sig P365 and Sig P322. I've shot the 320's the most (thousands of rounds). I shot the P365 1,000 rounds of factory ammo before I started carrying it. I never had a problem that can be attributed to the guns. No bulged empties and I have reloaded 9mm cases multiple times. I put more stock in my personal experience than internet opinions. It would appear to me that juries are mostly comprised of people who are ignorant of firearms. The same goes for attorneys and judges. The majority of police officers have only a rudimentary understanding of their firearms. No other firearm manufacturers who have recalls have taken so much heat as Sig. I suspect a lot of it is from Glock fanboys and I suspect maybe even interindustry led rumor mills. No matter, there are always anti-Sig folks ready to pounce at a moment's notice.

Sig did fix there very real issues so you got lucky but a little research will show you the how bad some X pistols were . Do not assume your right with out a little search time !! I hate glock , carry a colt 1911 and m&ps hunt with DW revolver and have 7 brands of handguns ,wife carry's a kimber ultra or p365xl but no P320 allowed around our home and even our high volume lgs seels no p320's .
 
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Sig did fix there very real issues so you got lucky but a little research will show you the how bad some X pistols were . Do not assume your right with out a little search time !! I hate glock , carry a colt 1911 and m&ps hunt with DW revolver and have 7 brands of handguns ,wife carry's a kimber ultra or p365xl but no P320 allowed around our home and even our high volume lgs seels no p320's .
No luck involved, although admittedly, I don't make a habit of dropping guns. The first Sig I got was the P320 Compact. It did go in for the trigger upgrade. Shooting them for thousands of rounds trumps internet "research". You do you and I'll do me.
 
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Some of the above posters base their opinions on personal experience. You may own a dinosaur that has never eaten a human being. That does not mean dinosaurs do not eat human beings. I was a Sig police armorer and love Sigs. I own a WG Sig P228. I know Sig factory trained armorers. They, like me would not own a 320. My states Highway Patrol issues 320's. No negligent discharges... yet
 
No luck involved, although admittedly, I don't make a habit of dropping guns. The first Sig I got was the P320 Compact. It did go in for the trigger upgrade. Shooting them for thousands of rounds trumps internet "research". You do you and I'll do me.

It was not the drop safe issue that bothered me I 've owned or CC'd series 70 1911 going way back. It's how sig dealt delt with there lack of testing and then calling it a "update " Not a recall . When the X series first came out sig had many chamber support issues with the brass in 9mm . By then the 40 was gone and the 357sig was circling the drain and a the 45 was be reduced . The P320 might be a 9mm only line today but not like I care or bother checking .

After sig told me my 9mm barrel was in spec I took it to my gun shop - a general store - and a sig rep was contacted by the general store owner . Not sure what happened but I was given credit for toward another handgun and picked up a m&p 2.0 compact OR ,TS and was out zero dollars .

I do know any p320's sold today there are only special ordered now , not for inventory . They sell lots on P365 models and still sell classic sigs but not the p320's .

Be glad you did not by a early 0320x5 or other the others like the X compact I had .
 
I bought my P320 in .357 early on, and 357 was only because the .45 hadn't been released yet and I didn't want to wait. All that to say, I've been following the P320 since early on and I remember all the various problems and their sequence. Based on that, this is my theory:

The early P320s were having problems with trigger slap so...
...in come the engineers. They increase the mass of the trigger to prevent the trigger slap.

The increased mass of the trigger caused a drop-safety problem, so...
...in come the engineers who reduce the mass of the trigger and loosen up some tolerances to prevent the original trigger-slap problem.

The looser tolerances cause the gun to discharge uncommanded, so...

Seriously, have their engineers never heard of FMEA or FMECA?

That's my theory anyway.
 
I like Sigs. I carried my P220 for 25 years in the FBI, and I carry a Sig P210 Carry Model often.

A couple of years ago my kids got me a .357 Sig 320 for my birthday. I have a spare .40 barrel and I shoot it a lot, but I don’t carry it. I think the jury got it right, and Sig is going to have to keep shelling out the dough until there is some kind of fix. I don’t want to re-litigate the case, but the video evidence is pretty compelling. Somehow these guns can go off in the holster if the circumstances are just right.

Just fix it.

It heartbreaking to see the 210 in that "holster" .
 
As the article states, the 320 (M17, M18), with a manual safety, is the US military's current sidearm.

Does the US military currently teach to carry with a round in the chamber or does it teach to rack after drawing?

The M17 and M18 have a manual safety similar to a 1911
 
Jury finds Sig Sauer liable for pistol shooting; awards $2.3M in damages | New Hampshire Public Radio

Trigger safety?

A jury found Sig Sauer was negligent for Langs injuries due to the design of the weapon, including that it lacked a trigger safety. Sig Sauers P320 pistol is one of the countrys most popular guns, with more than 2.5 million sold, according to court records.

Have you actually read the complaint?

While I hate just pulling a line or two from it since you really need to read everything to get a good idea of what's going on (including any documents being referenced) the complaint states:

"Failing to use due care in designing and manufacturing the P320’s internal components
and by omitting a mechanical disconnect switch to prevent un-intended discharge;"

Saying it's centered around a "trigger safety" really is not accurate, although I have to admit I have not read through the transcripts and don't know the specific arguments that were presented.

Of course I'm still waiting for someone to actually explain how this is happening without the trigger being pulled accidently, and how the striker safety is being defeated if the trigger was not pulled.

Here's a link to the complaint:
https://npr.brightspotcdn.com/cd/1a/ab7938ef4190827c4438b166180b/lang-georgia-complaint.pdf
 
If it is a design failure why hasn’t anyone replicated the “failure”? Holsters have been identified as one issue and the holster manufacturer agreed. And comments like “I’m an expert and wouldn’t own a P320” are opinions and rather useless unless the rationale (facts only, not opinions) is identified.
 
From what I have read and watched some of the videos, it seems that it is a combination of the holster and the gun. Granted, you can argue the holster is at fault, but if the holster is completely to blame, why are not other guns having the same problem in that same holster? It seems to me that if others are not having the same issue, they have done something right you haven't. Saying it only happens if x, y, z, but no one else has the issue, then you have something wrong. Figure it out. Or put a warning with the guns saying to not use X brand/model holster with this gun.

Rosewood
 
Some of the above posters base their opinions on personal experience. You may own a dinosaur that has never eaten a human being. That does not mean dinosaurs do not eat human beings. I was a Sig police armorer and love Sigs. I own a WG Sig P228. I know Sig factory trained armorers. They, like me would not own a 320. My states Highway Patrol issues 320's. No negligent discharges... yet

From your perspective, what is the issue with the 320's mechanism that's troublesome? I have a number of Sigs, including a 320. But the 320 dustup makes it a range toy for me. I don't know a thing about the how's and why's so I'd like to get a reading from someone close to the issue.
 
From your perspective, what is the issue with the 320's mechanism that's troublesome? I have a number of Sigs, including a 320. But the 320 dustup makes it a range toy for me. I don't know a thing about the how's and why's so I'd like to get a reading from someone close to the issue.

My Google Fu is weak this morning, otherwise I would direct you to the article I read that had details on how the sear and striker mechanisms of the P320 operate. From what I recall it is quite complicated. All of that complication was to eliminate the need for a trigger dingus.
 
My Google Fu is weak this morning, otherwise I would direct you to the article I read that had details on how the sear and striker mechanisms of the P320 operate. From what I recall it is quite complicated. All of that complication was to eliminate the need for a trigger dingus.

I was looking for the opinion of the armorer in the above post. First hand experience. I can also run google like the best of us!:D
 
Have you actually read the complaint?

While I hate just pulling a line or two from it since you really need to read everything to get a good idea of what's going on (including any documents being referenced) the complaint states:

"Failing to use due care in designing and manufacturing the P320’s internal components
and by omitting a mechanical disconnect switch to prevent un-intended discharge;"

Saying it's centered around a "trigger safety" really is not accurate, although I have to admit I have not read through the transcripts and don't know the specific arguments that were presented.

Of course I'm still waiting for someone to actually explain how this is happening without the trigger being pulled accidently, and how the striker safety is being defeated if the trigger was not pulled.

Here's a link to the complaint:
https://npr.brightspotcdn.com/cd/1a/ab7938ef4190827c4438b166180b/lang-georgia-complaint.pdf

Many thanks for the link to the complaint. Here is the holster in question:

DualPoint™ AIWB Holster - BlackPoint Tactical

The complainant alleges he carried at 4:00; good thing he didn't carry as blackpoint builds the holster for, which is high noon (AIWB).

Im my experience, a pistol without a manual safety (the trigger block is a passive safety) is a danger in a holster. I have a lengthy blog post on my own blog (can't post the link here) pointing out that just because the profile of a striker pistol is similar to a 1911, holsters don't ADD safety to the carry of one as it does to the 1911; it subtracts from safety.

And another lengthy blog post about AIWB carry, which I call *** carry because a pistol must never be carried pointed at its wearer. Before my retirement I had stopped building for striker pistols w/out safeties, because of the danger of combining them.
 

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My agency (who had been in SIG Classic series since going to auto loaders in the early 90s; first .45 P220s then .40 P226s) decided about 2013ish to transition to a new gun. As senior Firearms Instructor I was tasked with this by the Sheriff and Major, and told to select a "committee" of officers from both sexes and different sizes and backgrounds. At the time the only guns we were given options on and had T&E samples of were the G22 .40 and the SIG P226 E2 Elite in .40. Since many officers carry Glocks off duty, me, the Sheriff, and the Major all assumed it would be the Glock. We had about 4 range sessions over different days, and presented the guns as unbiased and unweighted as we could (and even final votes were anonymous, however most folks openly shared their opinions). The G22 was the almost unanimous choice and I took this back to the Major. He is a good man but he is a big SIG guy (or was then) and he told me he wanted to "table" the test and decision until we could test the new P320 when it arrived.

We got two in on T&E and they ran like champs. Both guns fired at least 1200 rounds each, and were never cleaned. They were also more accurate for every officer than the P226 or the G22, given the awesome trigger. I was on the fence, and took one last magazine out to the 25 yard line, and with a witness I fired one round (granted, very slowly) and it cut the "X" in the dead center of the bullseye. We chose the P320, but it took a while to get 100 guns.

In the meantime, my brother-in-law in Georgia was looking to trade his well-worn G23 and called asking my advice. I told him about the P320 and how it had "wowed" all of our firearms instructors and deputies that shot it so he bought one in a store in GA. He called back a few days later and asked "Why do you hate me?" I was confused and he said that the P320 wouldn't even fire an entire magazine of anything but ball ammo, and would sometimes hiccup on that. He said he, nor even the staff at the range, could fire it without malfunctions. I told him it was obviously a lemon and how to go about sending it back to SIG. He did, and got it back two or three weeks later, with a list of changes (I think barrel and extractor?) He took it back to the range and STILL Had malfunctions. He AGAIN sent it to SIG. We still did not have any of our P320s, but I called our SIG rep and he said he would handle this. He "had the gun brought over to the law enforcement side" where he said he could better address it, and had a senior gunsmith handle it. My BIL got it back in a couple weeks and that thing never missed a beat. It fed anything you loaded in it. After my BILs unexpected death in 2015 I inherited this pistol and it was flawless.

We did get our agency guns in and began transition training, and all FIs were given free "Armorer" training on the P320 (we were all already SIG Classic Series armorers). During transition qualification, some guns did have malfunctions, but it didn't seem extreme...AT FIRST. After all, these were new guns fresh off the drawing board and I guess we figured we were Beta testers. MY gun never had a problem-I think it may have had a couple of "slow feeds" where I nudged the rear of the slide but that went away after 100 rounds. Others however were bad enough that the Major issued them another gun and took theirs to be inspected or sent back. We finally got through quals and were carrying them. Then I starting hearing the SWAT guys (far and away our highest round count shooters with monthly training and the annual SWAT competition) griping about them "jamming." The issues were across the board also-not one noteworthy problem. Different guns, or sometimes the SAME guns were Fail To Feed, Fail To Eject, Slow Feeds, and possibly a couple of Fail to Fires(?). SWAT guys running shields noted a higher number of problems as they shoot around the shield in a sideways cant ("gangster" cant in the movies.)

The guns affected were sent back to SIG and returned. Some indicated changes had been made, and some just said "Inspected-Found to be within specifications". The next spring during departmental quals, regular officers were experiencing malfunctions at a much higher rate than we had ever seen.

SIG then told us that our guns were victims of "tolerance stacking" and they would replace all our frames for us. We had to arrange for the entire department to come by the range while the reps were there which is HUGE headache, but then they gave enough to one of our FIs that he did the rest over several days. We STILL had problems. Then SIG replaced the BARRELS for us. Still, malfunctions continued.

In 2015 or 2015 we finally called SIG and the distributor and told them to come get every P320 we'd bought and the Major was a real hard butt on them and told them they had better give us the full value we had paid for them, and not to try and credit us with used prices.

By then, upper management, even higher than me (lieutenant/senior FI) had decided we were going to 9mm. We went to the G17 and I retired at the end of 2018. My department is immensely happy with them. There has only been one shooting and the 124 grain Gold Dot dropped the BG like a rifle.
 
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