SIG P320 Discharges?

[Revelation]

No, you should not offer to buy it back as a matter of integrity. You might tell him that there are on going issues resulting in sudden untended firing. Then the choice is his.

I once fired 2 Glocks, in 45 GAP, both set for competition. About the most accurate handguns I have ever fired. One had a 12 ounce trigger the other a 16 ounce trigger, as sweat as a trigger can be. I also have a Uberti Single Action Army 45 Colt, it has a 12 ounce trigger. I only carry 5 rounds in it and only cock that gun when I intend to do so. Many people cannot go to bed at night with a gun like that in the house, lol.

Now think back, 40 years ago, we bought trigger shoes, from my old friend Melvin Tyler, (RIP) we put them on our deer rifles to make that 1.5 pound trigger feel even softer, that was state of the art, what the most professional riflemen did. Now, only some nut job would do that, right?

The Sig problem is totally different. Wear and tear and probably dirt accelerates the surprise firing. We notify our friends when we learn of the risk and if we own those guns we do not carry them around our friends. And the company has a duty to fix them or pull them out of the market. If not, the courts will fix that after enough people are injured.

My 2 cents. I will just not allow them in my house, that's all. All other Sigs I like just fine. Opinions vary. I may like you, but not your sister, same deal.

100%

 

[Taj]

Some folks don't remember the very early Glock "updates" that occurred several years ago. Due to tolerance stack-ups there were pistols that had situations where the cruciform sear was releasing the striker while still in the holster. Thankfully the striker safety plunger was doing it's job and I only recall a couple of incidents where the gun actually discharged. The biggest issue when this happened, was that you would draw the pistol to put it to work, and would have a "dead" trigger. I was a Glock LE rep back then and Glock called for an "update" vs a recall and we were sent out hundreds of update kits for all of the models, which included a new striker, trigger/ trigger bar, a striker safety plunger and spring, and an extractor plunger and spring. The whole idea was to increase the amount of sear engagement. We ran into a few issues where there was so much engagement, that if you pushed down on the slide toward the frame,(closing up that tolerance) the striker wouldn't release at all. We even had a cut away backing plate so we could visually see the amount of engagement. I still have a pretty large box of those kits, which I use for spare parts.

 

[Revelation]

I just had a thought about all those gun control do-gooders....... I wonder what they think about the 320 problems?

 

[RebCop]

Good morning, everyone. It's an interesting discussion and I appreciate everyone's comments.

I've been thinking about the video with the guy with the wood screw who points out the play/slop between slide and frame, and shows how the P320 can discharge when the slide is manipulated while the trigger is held motionless by the wood screw just beyond the wall.

View attachment 779688

Two thoughts on this occurred to me overnight:

• I don't think this explains how in a very few cases — including the recent USAF tragedy — P320s with manual safeties, M17s and M18s, have had reported uncommanded discharges. The manual safety, when engaged, holds the trigger well back from the wall.

• Typically shooters praise a crisp trigger. "Breaks like a glass rod" being the highest praise. In this case, as shown in the wood screw video, the trigger is held by the screw just beyond the wall. At that point, slide manipulation, bumps to the slide, will discharge the weapon.

While one would never want anything other than finger pressure on the trigger to actuate firing, if one had, say, a 1911 held a tiny fraction of a mm beyond the wall by a trigger finger, and the slide was bumped, I think the gun would be likely to discharge, not because of the slide manipulation but because of the sensitivity of the finger and trigger mechanism to contact at that extremely delicate point.

Reflecting on the above, I've been wondering how far beyond the wall triggers can typically be held before they actuate a discharge.

----

Re the cerakoted frame question above, I don't think that would have anything to do with it as that would not affect the up and down movement between frame and slide.

This is the reason the AD's are happening in security holsters. These holsters usually act against the trigger guard and are slightly depressing the trigger. Then any torque to the weapon results in a discharge. The scary thing for a duty gun is wrestling with a suspect with the gun in your hand. The trigger could get slightly depressed then a sideways motion and bang. The Officer swears he didn't pull the trigger and no one believes him. Hell , I know I wouldn't and I was a cop for 40 years. Oh I carried a 1911 and never had a problem with it going bang without a firm pull of the trigger.

 

[Harv 24]

Sorry, but in Portland in the late 80's or early 90's a Glock 17 went off in the holster during baton (PR 24) training when the baton hit the side of the holster on a back swing. No fingers involved.

There were other incidents too, but that is the one I had a personal connection to. Portland cops and Anchorage cops used the same (labor issues) law firm and the lawyers therein put pressure on Glock for remedies

If such things did not occur, why was Glock forced to redesign the part they call the cruciform and recommend they all be replaced?

Look it up.

As armorers we expedited the new parts asap and upgraded all the Glocks our guy and gals were carrying. The redesigned parts had a different color finish so that you could tell the difference.

Like Elmer Keith said.... Hell, I was there.

Key Issues Faced by Portland PD with Glock Pistols​

• Concerns Over Safety: Officers and critics raised alarms about the lack of a manual safety and the relatively light trigger pull. This led to fears of accidental discharges, especially during high-stress situations or reholstering.
• Training Gaps: The transition from revolvers to semi-automatic pistols like the Glock 17 required a significant shift in training. Some officers were unfamiliar with striker-fired systems, and early training programs didn’t always address the nuances of Glock’s Safe Action system.
• Negligent Discharges: There were reports of unintended discharges during handling, often attributed to gear interfering with the trigger or improper holstering technique
• These incidents fueled debate over whether the Glock was too “sensitive” for duty use without rigorous retraining.
• Union Pushback: The police union reportedly voiced concerns about officer safety and liability. Some officers resisted the switch, preferring the familiarity of their service revolvers.

I know a lot of early agency's that officers had ND's with. Glock did not redesign there internals from anything I can find.
No one ever wants to admit to a ND but "Glock Leg" was a thing until newer shooters were trained to keep there fingers off the bang switch. 40 Years later, and no ND's. I have Appendix carried a clock for well over 10 years and trust the pistol.

 

[Dave Haynes]

This whole deal is just a sign of the times. In the past, products and medicines were tested and the flaws were addressed before the item went on sale. Now we live in a time when A GOOD TRY EQUALS SUCCESS. The customer does the R&D for the manufacturer and pays for it with his life. These guns are not fine crafted industrial art, they are stamped steel and plastic junk that happens to work OK. They are assembled by people who are just as comfortable making toasters or cars. Most probably don't understand what they are making and probably have little knowledge on the subject. Medicine is worse in that they are put out with nowhere near the R&D and side effects are completely off the charts, many to be discovered after someone is dead or lives with the consequences. When people's lives depend on a tiny fragile sliver of steel hidden in the trigger, something is wrong big time. Training and knowledge helps but how many customers have any at all? It is just the way companies and customer's expectations have deteriorated over the years. I blame two groups, Lawyers and hedge funds. Recalls and settlements are cheaper than R&D.

 

[Lima_Delta54321]

let the experts or the Courts decide the issue. Yes I can read there are over 100 such accidental firings, I just do not think this is a political issue. My 2 cents.

(?)

 

[Kevin J.]

Remember the basics my friends.

 

[DRankin]

Some folks don't remember the very early Glock "updates" that occurred several years ago. Due to tolerance stack-ups there were pistols that had situations where the cruciform sear was releasing the striker while still in the holster. Thankfully the striker safety plunger was doing it's job and I only recall a couple of incidents where the gun actually discharged. The biggest issue when this happened, was that you would draw the pistol to put it to work, and would have a "dead" trigger. I was a Glock LE rep back then and Glock called for an "update" vs a recall and we were sent out hundreds of update kits for all of the models, which included a new striker, trigger/ trigger bar, a striker safety plunger and spring, and an extractor plunger and spring. The whole idea was to increase the amount of sear engagement. We ran into a few issues where there was so much engagement, that if you pushed down on the slide toward the frame,(closing up that tolerance) the striker wouldn't release at all. We even had a cut away backing plate so we could visually see the amount of engagement. I still have a pretty large box of those kits, which I use for spare parts.

Thanks!

That is how I remember it.

Too bad some others don't believe it.

 

[Swood]

Some folks don't remember the very early Glock "updates" that occurred several years ago. Due to tolerance stack-ups there were pistols that had situations where the cruciform sear was releasing the striker while still in the holster. Thankfully the striker safety plunger was doing it's job and I only recall a couple of incidents where the gun actually discharged. The biggest issue when this happened, was that you would draw the pistol to put it to work, and would have a "dead" trigger. I was a Glock LE rep back then and Glock called for an "update" vs a recall and we were sent out hundreds of update kits for all of the models, which included a new striker, trigger/ trigger bar, a striker safety plunger and spring, and an extractor plunger and spring. The whole idea was to increase the amount of sear engagement. We ran into a few issues where there was so much engagement, that if you pushed down on the slide toward the frame,(closing up that tolerance) the striker wouldn't release at all. We even had a cut away backing plate so we could visually see the amount of engagement. I still have a pretty large box of those kits, which I use for spare parts.

Wasn't that for the earlier Gen 4 models? I seem to remember the first run of Gen 4's had some issues, which is probably why I don't have one.

 

[Kanewpadle]

I fail to see why Glock was even brought up during this discussion. There’s a BIG difference between the two companies.

Glock actually did something meaningful. Sig has not.

 

[CH4]

I wonder if there’s anyone with the plums to appendix carry a 320

 

[Rocketmedic40]

Sig is now suing the Washington State Patrol for banning the P320 from their training facilities. Nice...

I got banned from Sigtalk for pointing out how silly that was.

 

[DRankin]

I fail to see why Glock was even brought up during this discussion. There’s a BIG difference between the two companies.
Glock actually did something meaningful. Sig has not.

It did stray off topic.

Someone tried to make the point that Glock should have been chosen in the place of the Sig because of its unblemished record and I pointed out it had teething problems as so many designs do.

They obviously got it fixed except for the above mentioned Gen 4 issue. But they fixed that too.

No animus against Glock. Just sayn' what I know.

Sorry about the hijack...............

 

[Bob Smalser]

Reminder the Sig mishap is not a new story. The design of the Smith & Wesson Victory Model (Model 10) was modified in 1945 to include an improved hammer block after a sailor was killed by a loaded revolver discharging when accidentally dropped onto a steel deck. Many don't consider pre-war Smiths drop safe, and carry the hammer on an empty chamber.

 

[judgecrater]

Remember the basics my friends.

View attachment 779819

You mean sell it and by a Glock?

 

[Doug M.]

Sig is NOT suing the Washington State Patrol as far as I know. IIRC their duty weapon is an S&W M&P. Sig is suing the Criminal Justice Training Commission over the ban; the director is a retired WSP Captain and should never have been appointed, but I think they are right this time. (WSP was exempt from training standards until the Brame debacle in 2004 or so.) The "trigger", pardon my pun, was a witnessed uncommanded discharge on the Spokane academy range. Gunsite is only allowing them in classes now for government (LE/Mil) personnel who are issued and mandated to carry them.
Sig has been out in left field with a tennis bat on this issue since at least 2017. It has been well known and not really subject to question since then, when it was reported on a limited access hard core mil/LE forum. They were never drop safe and I doubt the changes made this particular issue better. Sig's QA/QC IMHO has been poor for a long time and I would not trust anything they claim. I do have a 239 I bought used and it seems fine after testing, but about 20 years ago I ordered a 239 with certain options and Sig screwed it up so badly that the dealer refused it on his own initiative.

 

[Venom6]

Glock may be a paragon of safety and reliability today but they had early issues too.

I know for a fact that some police issued early Glocks discharged in the holsters. And Glock covered it up too, issuing a voluntary product upgrade when a full stop and recall was needed.

Maybe there is an old Portland Oregon cop out there in forum land that can back me up on this.

Anyway........

I think of hammer fired guns as mechanisms. By their nature they are simpler and inherently more safe.

Example: you can see a cocked hammer and an engaged safety on a 1911. That gives me a certain level of cautious comfort.

I have even more comfort with my double action revolvers knowing that the hammer has to completely cycle back and forth to fire the the gun.

Striker fired guns to me are more akin to contraptions.

By and large they are ready to fire without any visual indication of readiness (or lack thereof) and they rely of a series of springs, levers, cams and plungers to keep them from blindly, inadvertently discharging.

Add a highly flexible frame into that unholy mix and you can see where the trouble starts.

Bump an old fashioned mouse trap with you foot and see what happen next.

Striker fired handguns are here to solve the "problems" of hammer fired handguns.

I just don't see what problems they solve.

I ran the Portland Police Bureau's Asian Gang Unit in the late 1980's. That agency adopted the Glock 21 shortly after I left. The unit's sergeant was leading a side-handle baton (PR-24) practice session, and on a reverse spin his baton struck the side of the holster. There was a loud bang; the sarge was furious, thinking someone had thrown a firecracker at him. The team was stunned and silent until one of them said, "Well, I dunno Sarge, but your holster is smoking." It seems the side blow had jarred the cruciform plate. Yeah, I know, impossible for the gun to discharge, but it did, in front of a half-dozen police witnesses. And Glock did make a change, though I don't know what that was. A detailed examination of the gun, remaining ammunition, and holster showed no defects in any. This incident was related to me by one of the officers who was there.

 

[Bob Smalser]

Paddle safeties, fat men and hip holsters still don't mix well, as evidenced by a couple local incidents in the past year, one a range officer. If you have to reholster by feel, switch to shoulder carry.

 

[Benton Quest]

Glock did have an upgrade...as depicted early. It was on early Gen 1 and some Gen 2 guns. They discovered a RARE instance caused by tolerance stacking, bad luck and magic, situations where a gun could go off under just the right circumstances under just the right phase of the moon. The old parts were black...the new ones, silver. Although, I'm sure Glock had a more serious and specific name for the colors.

This was over 30 years ago.

The difference is...Glock recognized the problem, admitted the problem (albeit quietly) and offered a fix with the quickness.

Problems with NDs from Glocks since then have been isolated to people having their booger pickers on the bang switch or something contacting the trigger upon holstering. Full stop.

Sig has taken the exact opposite approach and it has not served them well. For this, they will pay the price, either legally, or through diminished customer confidence. They have now dug a hole so deep, they can't get out of it.

This will serve as a case study for future MBA ethics classes.

And eventually, someone on the inside is going to talk. They always do...