Slug Gun for Deer Question: Does barrel need to be rifled???

I have a ca. 1940 Winchester Model 12 in 12 gauge with a full choke. I believe it has a 28" barrel, but unsure of that. I have no problem keeping all rifled slug (Foster) hits on a sheet of typing paper at 100 yards. And that is using only the front bead as a sight. That is good enough for deer.
 
I hunted Iowa whitetails for years with a youth 20ga 870 express, smooth slug barrel, cheap 7/8oz slugs. One kill was at 80-85 yards. Most were in the 30-50 yards range.
Aside from rifled/smooth debate.
Has the boy done any shotgun shooting?
How big is he?
What kind of terrain will they be hunting?
Average shooting distance?
Shooting from a stand or walking?

In my opinion, the 870 Express is the best all around shotgun for the money. The youth models might be hard to find due to the shorter barrels, I would guess a lot have been purchased for home defense.
 
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So I could have a 20mm if only part of the barrel is rifled. How about if it had say 2'' of free bore, 6"? Is there a percentage or what? search of the BATF site gives nothing on this. Just another unwritten deal?

A search of the rules and regulations library reveled nothing
Rules and Regulations Library | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

I agree. The ATFE regs don't really address it, and I've never really thought about it until this thread. My thoughts that you quoted were based on a very brief attempt at research. I never came across it being prosecuted, and with Illinois and their shotgun only deer season just across the Mississippi from me, I have no doubt there are plenty of fully rifled shotgun barrels around. Next time my little group of retired feds shares a beer, I've got something new to ask . . .
 
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So I could have a 20mm if only part of the barrel is rifled. How about if it had say 2'' of free bore, 6"? Is there a percentage or what? search of the BATF site gives nothing on this. Just another unwritten deal?

A search of the rules and regulations library reveled nothing
Rules and Regulations Library | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
No. It has nothing to do with how much of the barrel is rifled. A 20mm is a destructive device, period.

The ATF pretty much uses the “if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...” philosophy on shotguns. Laws aren’t written to make things legal, they’re written to make things illegal. Rifled shotgun barrels have been produced for decades and accepted as suitable for “sporting purposes”. You can shoot shot through them.

Asking us to make sense of ATF rulings is quite the challenge. You might as well ask us to fly like a bird! They ruled that a 12 gauge Street Sweeper is a destructive device, because it has no “sporting purpose”. It was just a shotgun with a barrel over 18” and met the minimum length requirement, but it had a drum and looked scary. Then they ruled that Shockwave and Tac-14 are legal firearms, not shotguns and are OK with 14” barrels. Go figure…
 
While the vanes on Foster slugs can impart a slight spin to the projecile, it doesn't contribute much if anything to slug stability. It is the Foster slug's weight-forward, shuttlecock-like construction that does that. The vanes were added to keep the slug centered in the bore and to allow it to be fired safely from guns with varying degrees of choke. A solid "punkin' ball" can wreck a tight choke, whle the vanes and hollow base of a Foster slug allow it to squeeze down and pass even a full choke without damage.
 
I thought about trying a rifled choke but my mossberg shoots really good out to 75 yards.The imp. or mod choke in my 20 surprised me with no sights on it.The 500 20 ga wood stock doesn't kick nearly as bad as 12 ga 835 ultimag.
 
I have a smooth-bore Buck Special barrel for my Browning Auto-5. Produces under 3-inch groups at 50 yards with Foster slugs. I would think that would tighten up a bit with Brennekes. Important that you keep within the range of effectiveness for slug accuracy.
 
Foster style slugs will drop through the average cyl bore of a spec bbl.
Not all bbls being equal, some shoot better that others.
The choke on it also effects the flight & accuracy as it exits. Chokes are not always concentric to the bore nor are they always bored and reamed as part of the bore.
Many less expensive guns have a simple swaged choke where the end of cyl bored bbl is then pushed into a swage die or sometimes rolled to constrict the last inch or so producing a choke . I t can be accurate, but it can be very inaccurate as well.

Full chokes tend to damage the foster type slug as it trys to squeeze thru the restricted opening. But sometimes the spec of the choke and the particular slug match up well and good accuracy result.

Like any firearm, what works well/accurately in one gun may be a flop in another.

Brenneke slugs have a fiber wad attached to the lead slug with a screw.
The slug itself is a bit larger in dia than the average Foster style and meant to be a bore-riding bullet in the Cyl bore .
The attached short fibre wad column is meant to squeeze down and seal & keep the slug centered in the bore. Better accuracy and ballistics are claimed.

Sabots use a small dia bullet or slug in a plastic envelop,,the sabot.
They can be a much lighter weight bullet and therefore higher vel.
The plastic sabot seals and rides the bore of the barrel and if rifled has the same effect as shooting a riffle bullet down a rifle barrel.

But again, one brand of ammo usually does much better than another. Same with your average rifle or handgun.

Ithaca's M37 DeerSlayer used to use a bbl with a slightly smaller spec bore than the standard shot bbl.
That was at the time when the Foster Slug was the most popular. The idea was to reduce the loose fit of the slug to the bore and increase accuracy.
Most said it worked, others disagreed.
I don't know if the small bore idea was dropped after some time in production.

In the 60's & 70's there were a couple of gadgets you could buy, one from Williams Gunsight Co.,,that clamped onto the end of your bbl.
They were simply rifled bbl extensions, usually about 6" in length and made of alloy.
The promise was to impart real stabilizing spin to the Foster slug and 'shoot like a rifle'.

The 'Xtra Lite Slugs' (Hornady I think) use a 300gr bullet inside the sabot.
A regular jacketed soft point rifle bullet.
These reduce recoil from what the regular slug loads can be.
Nice load for anyone a bit recoil shy.

When I grew up, it was 'Slug Only' for big game. So your 12ga shotgun from pheasant season (remember those) became your deer gun.
You were told a '12' was the only gun that would take a deer which of course is non-sense.
But the oldsters stuck to their beliefs and that's what they past along.
A 12ga 'hits harder' after all and a long bbl 'shoots harder'.

No scopes, no extra iron sights. Just the same bird gun with a bead out front now loaded with slugs.
Every one pretty much got their deer and then some.
Sight in & pre season practice was a shot or two a couple days before opening day at a knot on a tree ,, if that.
No wasting ammunition.
 
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At one time me and a buddy were going to take one of the Brit Enfields and fit with a “410” barrel made from a 1919 Browning heavy .30 cal. We were going to use ammo made up in 444 Marlin brass. We would experiment with bullet diameters when we progressed that far. R&D stopped when Ohio took 410s off legal deer gun list. Some committee decided 410s were wounding to many deer. The same people who say that about a 30/30 but think it OK to use a Hi Point 9mm carbine on Ohio deer. We were told making a smooth bore gun from a rifle wasn’t legal for deer.
On another note those screw on rifled chokes are a joke. They shoot neither Foster or sabot slugs worth a dime. I had many unsatisfied customers complain about them.
 
No reason to overthink this!
The Slug Barrels with Rifle type Sights are nice but not necessary.
Get him a 20 Ga 870 with Rem Choke Barrel, Screw in an Open choke - Like a Cylinder Choke.
Get some Slugs and go shooting!
Me and lots of other Folkies have successful taken Deer with Slugs.
 
Redcoat3340,
I'm no expert on slug guns, but I have been hunting deer with one for close to 20 years now. I started with an 870 smooth bore 12 gage iron sights and slugs never could do better than 4"-5" groups at 50 yards. I tried them all and was limited to about 50 yards.

A few years into slug gun hunting I purchased a fully riffled barrel for that 870 and moved up shooting sabots. It never shot better that 3"-4" groups at 75 yards with iron sights. At 100 it was all over the place. Again I tried them all and was limited to about 75 yards.

Today I have a Savage 220 SS in 20 gage topped with a Leupold scope it will do 2" groups at 100+ yards with the Remington Accutip sabots.

I would recommend you look at the Savage 220. They're pretty darn accurate
 
I agree. The ATFE regs don't really address it, and I've never really thought about it until this thread. My thoughts that you quoted were based on a very brief attempt at research. I never came across it being prosecuted, and with Illinois and their shotgun only deer season just across the Mississippi from me, I have no doubt there are plenty of fully rifled shotgun barrels around. Next time my little group of retired feds shares a beer, I've got something new to ask . . .
Thanks, I had never thought about it before either
 
For those suggesting the Savage 220, yes it is an excellent deer gun but the OP asked for modestly priced At $600+ and plus a scope I sure wouldn't call that modest priced.
The gun is for a kid.
 
Well OP, your bottom line question.

"Suggestions for modestly priced guns gratefully accepted."

Without doing deep dives.

A Remington 20 gauge "youth" 870 Express with a fully rifled
barrel ( that is a catalog item), coupled with 20 gauge
Remington Accu-Tip Sabot slugs will set the kid up
for success.

But these days....good luck finding one.
 
Well OP, your bottom line question.

"Suggestions for modestly priced guns gratefully accepted."

Without doing deep dives.

A Remington 20 gauge "youth" 870 Express with a fully rifled
barrel ( that is a catalog item), coupled with 20 gauge
Remington Accu-Tip Sabot slugs will set the kid up
for success.

But these days....good luck finding one.

The OP should message me. just sayin'
 
Recoil differences between a 12 and 20 gauge are smaller than most expect. Because the typical 20 gauge is typically around 1 lbs lighter than a 12 gauge. So, a 7/8 ounce charge out of a 20 gauge will feel near identical to the recoil of a 1 ounce load out of a 12 gauge.

Fact is the most significant factor effecting the recoil is the Ammunition. Shoot a 1 3/4 ounce 3 1/2 load from a 12 gauge and you'll start thinking about if you really want to fire another. Fortunately your really don't need a lot of mass or power with a shotgun slug to take a deer, heck people are taking deer with a "puny" little 357 Magnum in a 6 inch revolver. So don't go out looking for the heaviest or fastest load, if the shot is well placed a 3/4 to 1 ounce Foster Slug will drop a deer quickly.

“ Low Recoil “ slug loads are the way to go.
Good luck finding them, or ANY slug loads in the current market.
I haven’t seen any for sale for almost two years.

He may have to sit this one out until next year.
 
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Recoil differences between a 12 and 20 gauge are smaller than most expect. Because the typical 20 gauge is typically around 1 lbs lighter than a 12 gauge. So, a 7/8 ounce charge out of a 20 gauge will feel near identical to the recoil of a 1 ounce load out of a 12 gauge.

Fact is the most significant factor effecting the recoil is the Ammunition. Shoot a 1 3/4 ounce 3 1/2 load from a 12 gauge and you'll start thinking about if you really want to fire another. Fortunately your really don't need a lot of mass or power with a shotgun slug to take a deer, heck people are taking deer with a "puny" little 357 Magnum in a 6 inch revolver. So don't go out looking for the heaviest or fastest load, if the shot is well placed a 3/4 to 1 ounce Foster Slug will drop a deer quickly.

I've shot plenty of deer with relatively puny 50, and 54 caliber patched round balls from a traditional muzzleloader. 180, and 230 grains I believe. Never a problem, never had one run past 30 to 40 yards before dropping. All carefully placed shots at 100 yards and less. Your 20ga slug is gonna work just fine.
 
No reason to overthink this!
The Slug Barrels with Rifle type Sights are nice but not necessary.
Get him a 20 Ga 870 with Rem Choke Barrel, Screw in an Open choke - Like a Cylinder Choke.
Get some Slugs and go shooting!
Me and lots of other Folkies have successful taken Deer with Slugs.

I have had better luck with Modified choke.
 
While I did fool around with 20 and 12 gauge slugs, including casting my own 12 gauge slugs, it was a long time ago so I'll defer to the more experienced members on that topic.

However, I'll offer what works for me. The original poster, Redcoat3340, lists his location as Washington State. As far as I know Washington does not restrict any deer hunt to shotguns only. While hunting deer with a modern firearm tag in a restricted firearm zone Washington offers us three choices of firearm type: revolver, shotgun or muzzle loading rifle. Absent a specialized shotgun that you've spent time testing at the range or unusually great skill with a revolver, the muzzle loading rifle is by far the most accurate of the three. In this limited circumstance Washington allows scopes on muzzle loading rifles. I have not used a scope but a good aperture sight combined with my Hawken's set trigger makes it easier to shoot accurately offhand than a scoped modern rifle. The common Thompson Center .50 Cal. 370 grain Maxi Ball launches at 1,400 fps and groups in 3" at 100 yards. I forget the ballistics of the .45 Cal. version but it should be more than enough for deer. There are much more modern muzzle loading rifles that I presume will do better but I like a 1970s Hawken's more tradition walnut, blued steel and general appearance. It still works fine.
 
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