Snub Nose Ballistics

[Me239]

Hey, everyone! I was curious and decided to look up the ballistics of several pistol calibers out of snub nosed barrels. Needless to say, I was quite surprised at the results.
Here is a graph of the energy of the most powerful cartridges tested by Ballistics By the Inch out of a 2" Barrel

As one can see in the graph, .40 S&W and .357 Sig were the top performers, even over .357 Magnum and .44 Special! With that said, this is only 2" of barrel. Once 4" is reached, 357 Magnum begins to really pick up power (421 Feet-second faster!), while the others seem to only pick up ~300fps max. My reasoning behind this powder selections by the manufacturer. Now what this means is up to the reader as energy is not always the most accurate way to sum up the effectiveness of a cartridge. I still think the most interesting thing is this data goes in the face of the "but-its-357-magnum" argument I've heard so often when discussing the energy of different cartridges. Practically speaking, if it was between a .357 Magnum 2" snub and a pocket 9mm with a 2" barrel, the 9mm would actually have a slight edge (energy wise) to the .357.
What this data also excludes is the bullet profile (eg. a bullet of the same mass but longer will penetrate further than its fatter counterpart), so penetration capability is unknown.

Cartridges Tested:
9mm - Cor Bon 125 gr. JHP +P
40 S&W - Cor Bon 150 gr. JHP
.357 Magnum - Cor Bon 125 gr. DPX
.357 Sig - Cor Bon 125 gr. JHP
.44 Special - Cor Bon 200 gr. DPX
38 Special - Speer 135 gr. Gold Dot HP
.45 ACP - Cor Bon 165 gr. JHP +P

Original Data:
FPS Grain Energy in Ft-Lbs Barrel
9mm 1061 125 308 2"
357 Magnum 1050 125 302 2"
357 Sig 1173 125 377 2"
44 Special 713 200 223 2"
38 Special 756 135 169 2"
.40 S&W 1071 150 377 2"
45 ACP 1001 165 363 2"

 

[Chris642]

I don't want to sound ignorant, but I've never seen or heard of a revolver in .357sig or .40S&W with a 2 inch barrel. I don't even think there are semi-autos in those calibers with barrels that short. Would someone care to enlighten me?

 

[Otreb]

A few problems;
Testing an inch- inch and half long revolver round in a 2" bbl means it has a 1/2 to 1" 'runway' to work with vs a 9mm/.357sig or .40sw round Which will be shorter and have more to work with in that same 2" bbl.
I think a better case is made when comparing a 2" revolver to a 3" auto....which they do. They also test some heavier loads in .38sp that go right even with the 9mm, but aren't included in the graph.
They don't really make a 2" 9mm/40/357 pistol, though the goofy Taurus view will be pretty close to an 'effective 2 inches' barrel revolver.
A 2" snub revolver will actually make more power than a 3" 9mm, as they will both have essentially the same amount of runway and the best .357 mag is still pushing 158gr over 1200fps in a snubby.

 

[rwsmith]

I'll have to digest...

Thanks for posting this table. I'm going to have to digest it some.


I've thunk a little and say that the .38 special is adequate at close range in a warm climate where there are no heavy coats. The other ones are better than adequate, especially under tougher conditions. I'm not arguing with the numbers at all. A more powerful gun is a more powerful gun and like you say it seems that the .357 isn't 'tops'. However experience says it's a very likely fight stopper. My SD rounds range from 9mm to a low end .357, especially in the house where I don't want to blow our ears out. I wouldn't feel under armed with a good .38 +P in my climate. Even the .380 with modern ammo is more respected as an SD round now, though I would rather carry something a little meaner. I'm also going to try to be armed with something that has a barrel 2.5 - 3 inches long. A Shield or a model 60 would do nicely.

 

[Me239]

Charter Arms Pitbull comes in 9mm and .40 S&W (you're correct with .357 sig though) with a 2.3" barrel. Most auto loaders are around 3" (shortest I've seen is the p38k's 2" barrel). Shortest .357 Magnum is the LCR at 1.875". Also, with something like a PF9 with a 3" barrel, you'd get more performance than with the LCR at the same length and height.

I think my post should have been more about how .357 Magnum wastes energy in the little barrel than what other cartridges would do at the same barrel length. I was genuinely surprised at the .357's performance in snub nosed barrels and thought others might be too.

 

[Me239]

What this also makes me realize is that I wish Ballistics By the Inch would test more loads. I see people claiming 1245 fps with 125 grain projectiles from the 1.875" LCR.

 

[Chris642]

Charter Arms Pitbull comes in 9mm and .40 S&W (you're correct with .357 sig though) with a 2.3" barrel. Most auto loaders are around 3" (shortest I've seen is the p38k's 2" barrel). Shortest .357 Magnum is the LCR at 1.875". Also, with something like a PF9 with a 3" barrel, you'd get more performance than with the LCR at the same length and height.

I think my post should have been more about how .357 Magnum wastes energy in the little barrel than what other cartridges would do at the same barrel length. I was genuinely surprised at the .357's performance in snub nosed barrels and thought others might be too.

No doubt there is energy wasted with .357 in a shorter barrel, but it is still better then any .38spl load.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Is that chart trying to tell us the 9mm outperformed the .357 Magnum? I have a problem with that.

 

[OKFC05]

For those that worship at the altar of muzzle energy, the lighter bullet going faster is always better.
However, penetration is more proportional to MOMENTUM, not energy.
Taken to the extreme, using only energy as the measure leads to the absurd conclusion that a Mach 2 BB is the ultimate defensive bullet.

 

[Waywatcher]

Me239, the .357 load picked for this test, DPX, is not a full pressure load. Cor Bon will even tell you that; it's meant for reduced recoil and adequate performance. Out of a 4" barrel, this load's 125 grain bullet is only doing 1200fps--a good couple hundred fps slower than full pressure loads.

 

[Me239]

Is that chart trying to tell us the 9mm outperformed the .357 Magnum? I have a problem with that.

That's exactly what I said.

 

[murphydog]

Interesting data. There are plenty of 2" .357s out there - S & W 627s, 640s and 60s (2 1/8"), Colt Lawman and Magnum Carry, plus (I think) several Taurus models.

 

[Me239]

Me239, the .357 load picked for this test, DPX, is not a full pressure load. Cor Bon will even tell you that; it's meant for reduced recoil and adequate performance. Out of a 4" barrel, this load's 125 grain bullet is only doing 1200fps--a good couple hundred fps slower than full pressure loads.

If anyone wants to post chrono data, I'd be happy to graph it all.

 

[jack the toad]

For those that worship at the altar of muzzle energy, the lighter bullet going faster is always better.
However, penetration is more proportional to MOMENTUM, not energy.
Taken to the extreme, using only energy as the measure leads to the absurd conclusion that a Mach 2 BB is the ultimate defensive bullet.

Wow, and think how many rounds you could carry.

 

[Waywatcher]

If anyone wants to post chrono data, I'd be happy to graph it all.

Here's some chrono data from the late, respected Stephen Camp: 38 vs 357 snub

The full pressure 125 grain Remington load is clipping along at well over 1200 fps--meaning over 400ft/lbs of energy--from a snub nose .357.

 

[Otreb]

What this also makes me realize is that I wish Ballistics By the Inch would test more loads. I see people claiming 1245 fps with 125 grain projectiles from the 1.875" LCR.

I've chrono'd milquetoast loads like hornady critical defense 125gr .357mag at 1200 fps in my LCR. Something like underwood or BB would be a good 100+fps faster at least. Plus a lot of blast and recoil, of course.

 

[ArtyM]

The short barrel gold dots in 38 may be defective. All the data Imhave seen have the velocity as higher, and closer to what Speer publishes, or higher. The 357 data are also too low and represent one round. You do lose lots of velocity from a snubby, but the data should be accurate before conclusions are drawn

 

[Nevada Ed]

357 Magnum 1050 125 302 2"......

My 2" snub 38 special J frame with a 125 jhp gets ........

903 fps with a +P load with just Red Dot.....
no way a "Standard" 125gr Magnum only hits 1050 out of a 2".

The chart is interesting but............
I would take it with a grain of salt.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

That's exactly what I said.

You do realize muzzle velocity alone does not determine how well your ammo will perform in a SD situation, right?

What point are you trying to make here? (or are you just stirring the pot?)

 

[Me239]

You do realize muzzle velocity alone does not determine how well your ammo will perform in a SD situation, right?

What point are you trying to make here? (or are you just stirring the pot?)

I'm well aware that muzzle velocity is not the only factor, hence why I used muzzle energy. Muzzle energy is not the only factor we have for determining a cartridge's effectiveness, but it's often directly proportional and easily quantifiable. Other factors of course include the momentum of the projectile, hardness of the alloy, bullet profile, overall bullet design quality... The list goes on to other options like availability, how well it can be managed, muzzle flash, etc., but I don't have all of these details. I can easily make another graph that includes momentum as well if that's any better. And no, I'm not trying to stir the pot.

 

[Waywatcher]

For those that worship at the altar of muzzle energy, the lighter bullet going faster is always better.
However, penetration is more proportional to MOMENTUM, not energy.
Taken to the extreme, using only energy as the measure leads to the absurd conclusion that a Mach 2 BB is the ultimate defensive bullet.

Well, a standard BB traveling at Mach 2 has a paltry 57 ft/lbs of energy.

 

[JJEH]

Well, yeah, numbers don't lie but they can vary. Among others I use Buffalo Bore Standard Pressure Short Barrel Low Flash in .38 Spl. It's a 150 gr. Hard Cast Wad Cutter and advertised with 850fps and 241 ft. lbs. at the muzzle.

I don't care if you like this numbers or not but I wouldn't wanna stand in the bullets path.

 

[Cal44]

Well, a standard BB traveling at Mach 2 has a paltry 57 ft/lbs of energy.

Well you just aren't shooting your BB fast enough.

For example, if the BB were fired at 1/2 the speed of light, it would have muzzle energy of :

2.7 trillion ft lbs.

This is approximately equal to a small 1 kiloton nuclear bomb.

It would definitely take out a bad guy (along with most of the town).

 

[cbthedookie]

Also note that BBI test is using a fixed barrel for all cartridges - eg the length implicitly includes cartridge length. This is consistent with auto barrel sizing, which include chamber. Revolver barrel sizing excludes cylinder, so a two inch snubbie is closer to the three inch barrel measure in BBI test barrel. Of course revolver also has cylinder gap... I tend to look at real-world examples at bottom of BBI tables.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[ArchAngelCD]

9mm - Cor Bon 125 gr. JHP +P
40 S&W - Cor Bon 150 gr. JHP
.357 Magnum - Cor Bon 125 gr. DPX
.357 Sig - Cor Bon 125 gr. JHP
.44 Special - Cor Bon 200 gr. DPX
38 Special - Speer 135 gr. Gold Dot HP
.45 ACP - Cor Bon 165 gr. JHP +P

A question or two.
Why did you use high velocity CorBon +P ammo in everything but the .38 Special where you used a short barrel load with lower velocities? That would put the .38 Special in a bad light whereas everything else you shot was high velocity ammo. If you couldn't find CorBon .38 Special +P ammo you might have at least used a full power .38 Special +P ammo like the 125gr Gold Dot +P load... The 135gr SB load runs 860 fps but the 125gr load runs 950 fps.

While the original JHP loads were used for the other tests, including the 9m, when testing the .357 Magnum the DPX all copper load was tested. The original CorBon 125gr .357 Mag is rated @1400 fps while the DPX load used in the data is rated only @1300 fps. Again, not equal footing.

That chart makes the numbers for the 44 Special look bad too. The DPX ammo tested was rated only 950 fps but the original CorBon 200gr 44 Special is listed @1250 fps.

You also shot 165gr 45 Auto ammo which isn't popular at all for SD. Most will carry 200gr or 230gr ammo.

9mm - Cor Bon 125 gr. JHP +P - Rated @ 1250 fps from a 4" barrel
40 S&W - Cor Bon 150 gr. JHP - Rated @ 1200 fps from a 4" barrel
.357 Magnum - Cor Bon 125 gr. DPX - Rated @ 1300 fps from a 4" barrel
.357 Sig - Cor Bon 125 gr. JHP - Rated @ 1425 fps from a 4" barrel
.44 Special - Cor Bon 200 gr. DPX - Rated @ 950 fps from a 4" barrel
38 Special - Speer 135 gr. Gold Dot HP - Rated @ 860 fps from a 2" barrel
.45 ACP - Cor Bon 165 gr. JHP +P - Rated @ 1250 fps from a 5" barrel

IMO the .357 Mag should be 1450 fps like the Speer load and most others, not 1300 fps.

IMO the .38 Special should have a velocity of at least 950 fps, not 860 fps like tested.

IMO a heavier bullet ammo for the 45 Auto should have been tested like most shooters would carry with the bullet traveling ~900 fps.

If you play with the numbers enough you can make then tell the story you want to tell...

 

[Me239]

A question or two.
Why did you use high velocity CorBon +P ammo in everything but the .38 Special where you used a short barrel load with lower velocities? That would put the .38 Special in a bad light whereas everything else you shot was high velocity ammo. If you couldn't find CorBon .38 Special +P ammo you might have at least used a full power .38 Special +P ammo like the 125gr Gold Dot +P load... The 135gr SB load runs 860 fps but the 125gr load runs 950 fps.

While the original JHP loads were used for the other tests, including the 9m, when testing the .357 Magnum the DPX all copper load was tested. The original CorBon 125gr .357 Mag is rated @1400 fps while the DPX load used in the data is rated only @1300 fps. Again, not equal footing.

That chart makes the numbers for the 44 Special look bad too. The DPX ammo tested was rated only 950 fps but the original CorBon 200gr 44 Special is listed @1250 fps.

You also shot 165gr 45 Auto ammo which isn't popular at all for SD. Most will carry 200gr or 230gr ammo.

9mm - Cor Bon 125 gr. JHP +P - Rated @ 1250 fps from a 4" barrel
40 S&W - Cor Bon 150 gr. JHP - Rated @ 1200 fps from a 4" barrel
.357 Magnum - Cor Bon 125 gr. DPX - Rated @ 1300 fps from a 4" barrel
.357 Sig - Cor Bon 125 gr. JHP - Rated @ 1425 fps from a 4" barrel
.44 Special - Cor Bon 200 gr. DPX - Rated @ 950 fps from a 4" barrel
38 Special - Speer 135 gr. Gold Dot HP - Rated @ 860 fps from a 2" barrel
.45 ACP - Cor Bon 165 gr. JHP +P - Rated @ 1250 fps from a 5" barrel

IMO the .357 Mag should be 1450 fps like the Speer load and most others, not 1300 fps.

IMO the .38 Special should have a velocity of at least 950 fps, not 860 fps like tested.

IMO a heavier bullet ammo for the 45 Auto should have been tested like most shooters would carry with the bullet traveling ~900 fps.

If you play with the numbers enough you can make then tell the story you want to tell...

Honestly, I went to the page of each cartridge and looked at the graph at what had the most energy in a short barrel. I didn't to make one look worse than the other, I just took the highest results of each and put them in a bar graph.

 

[eb07]

All I know is my data for a 135gr Speer Gold Dot short barrel from a Ruger LCR 1.875" barrel in 357 flavor:

Factory Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel 135gr 357 Magnum:

High - 1107
Low - 1089

Avg - 1092 FPS - 357 ft lbs energy

My reloads:

High - 1265
Low - 1221

Avg - 1252 FPS - 470 ft lbs energy

I like real word numbers from my handguns not published numbers

 

[eb07]

Just to get some factory 10mm data on here:

Buffalo Bore Heavy 10mm 180gr JHP w/speer gold dots

Glock 29 3.77" barrel

Avg 1274 FPS 648.8 ft lbs energy

 

[eb07]

Factory 44 special from my 2.175" Bulldog:

Factory

200gr Winchester Silver Tip ( two different temps)
770.8 FPS – 264 ft lbs energy
792 FPS - 279 ft lbs energy

Corbon 180gr JHP
985 fps - 387.7 Ft lbs

CCi 200gr Speer Gold Dot
831fps -275.9 ft lbs


Federal 200gr LHP
852fps - 322.3 ft lbs

Hornaday 180gr XTP
865 fps - 289.9 ft lbs

44 special doesn't have many good factory offerings, it really is a cartridge to be reloaded to get the most out of it

here are my reload results ( all within 16K or lower)

200 gr speer gold dots ( two different temps)
950.8 FPS – 402ft lbs energy
1015 FPS - 457ft lbs energy

240gr Speer JHP
916.5 FPS – 448ft lbs energy

240gr Speer JHP ( a few grains hotter than above - 2 different temps)
927.8 FPS – 459ft lbs energy
939.6 FPS - 470ft lbs energy

180gr Hornaday XTP
1089 FPS - 474ft lbs energy

225gr Speer JHP
934.4 FPS - 436ft lbs energy

 

[Nevada Ed]

For those of us that reload, it is all about what we feel is the best load for us and the weapon being used.....
be it slower or faster than factory ammo.

Most that use factory ammo, usually don't have a chrony, and just want the gun to go "Bang".

Numbers and chats are nice but it still comes down to.........
bullet placement or misses.

One lady in the family does well with a 45 ACP while another needs the 38 special to qualify. My wife's daughter likes the 9mm 3" for her carry permit.

Heads or Tails...................