stand your ground/Concealed carry

[CowboyKen]

If the investigation shows that he was justified in the shooting, (and I do not know that it will), and he isn't charged he cannot be sued under Florida law.

Here in Nevada, where it appears I can shoot a unarmed man in my back yard, from inside my home, through a window, and not be charged I can still be sued. It appears I can be sued even if I am attacked by multiple armed miscreants who have broken into my house.

Ken

 

[cmort666]

cmort666 I agree with you regarding the protection intended by the castle doctrine. Here is a case in Texas where this law failed to protect the homeowner from a significant expense of over $60,000 after he had to defend a civil case, even after the criminal charges were dismissed.

Given that the assailant or his survivors CANNOT collect a judgment in a good shoot, it would be EXCEPTIONALLY hard to find an attorney willing to take a case on a contingent basis, for clients who very likely will NEVER pay him, and who in any case CANNOT collect, REGARDLESS of the outcome.

Ohio has laws regarding what are called "vexatious litigators". There are in fact CRIMINAL penalties for bringing frivolous suits.

 

[cmort666]

Here in Nevada, where it appears I can shoot a unarmed man in my back yard, from inside my home, through a window, and not be charged I can still be sued. It appears I can be sued even if I am attacked by multiple armed miscreants who have broken into my house.

Ken

Here in Ohio, they can sue... they just can't collect.

Good luck finding a lawyer to pursue such a case.

 

[tyusclan]

From the Florida Statutes:

776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.—

(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force...

 

[Lenny_D]

What is so disturbing to me about this whole thing is how fast the Media picked this up and polarized the country. We had lawmakers up here in NY wearing hooded sweatshirts to show their support for the man who was killed, without knowing anything about the case that happened 2000 miles away!
I simply can't make a judgement whether Mr. Zimmerman made the right call as I'm old enough to realize that you should NEVER believe what you read or hear on national news media.
As a ccp holder I have asked myself when I would pull and I think thats a question all of us should ask ourselves and cement in our brains. I will not allow myself or family to be hurt or worse if I can stop it. I do not consider belongings being stolen a case for deadly force unless it involves the use of a weapon. I will not make idle threats or brandish my weapon. If I pull the decision is already made.

 

[Chuck1217]

Just got back to updates on this thread, really good to see some states don't allow civil suits after shootings- this country isn't TOTALLY messed up- yet-

 

[Badquaker]

I was present at a carjacking when the owner was threatened by a man with a bat. If the owner had been struck I would have felt morally compelled to shoot the perp, thank fully he surrendered his keys and I watched the perp drive away without having to draw my weapon.

I am absolutely disgusted by this. Let's hope that if the situation is ever reversed, that someone with more backbone will come to your aid.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.....

 

[TexasArmed]

Just got back to updates on this thread, really good to see some states don't allow civil suits after shootings- this country isn't TOTALLY messed up- yet-[/QUOTE

The fact that some states including Texas don't allow civil suits after shootings that are justified, does not mean that the homeowner or CHL holder won't be out some legal expenses,
because they will.

There was a 14 year old teen ager shot in Dallas Monday night, when he and two other teen agers knocked on a front door of a homeowner, when there was no answer they went to the back door and kicked the door in. A man and his adult son was at home, and shot the teenager. The link below has some details. The homeowner was not charged, but it goes to a grand jury and the homeowner is out legal fees. Shouldn't the parents of the unsupervised teenagers ages 13 to 14 have to pay all the legal fees, and shouldn't the teenagers be charged with manslaughter since their doing a felony (burglary), resulted in the death of another teenager. So far the two teenagers have only been charged with burglary. The Texas Castle doctrine provides civil immunity for the homeowner but I would expect the homeowner will be out legal fees when it goes to the grand jury which will likely no bill it. The link indicates that the teenagers likely thought there was noone home, but the newspaper indicated the homeowner warned them he was armed. Why shouldn't the parents of the teenagers be held civilly liable for any expenses incurred by the homeowner.
The newspaper article in the Dallas paper incorrectly indicates that Texas has no SYG law. We do but in this case the Castle Doctrine applies.

]http://www.kens5.com/news/146743135.html

 

[TAKJR]

The use of deadly force is "legally" acceptable only as a last resort and it must be both reasonable and necessary to prevent "imminent" death or great bodily harm to yourself or someone else, stand your ground, or otherwise.

The use of deadly force is a serious matter.

How serious you say?

Mr. Zimmerman is now finding out, media or otherwise.

I believe he may be charged with manslaughter, no matter which side you are on. Then let the legal system start its engines.

We all like guns. We all shoot targets, some of us hunt, etc., but the death of ANY human being, will be taken seriously, not just by the court of public opinion, but by legal system, which is not perfect by any means, but its the only system we have.

I feel sorry for Mr. Zimmerman, but had he waited for the police in his car.....not committing a so-called "act of furtherance" by making physical contact with the subject in question, a few extra seconds of patience would have paid off...in droves.

Neighborhood watch means exactly that.

Let the police make the Terry stop.

TAKJR

 

[hobby-gunsmith]

stand your ground

What you have to look for is the facts in the case. For one, I was not there and there were no other accountable witnesses. Fact is that Zimmerman had a right to be there and so did Martin. Fact, Zimmerman was legally carrying a concealed firearm. He had a right to follow Martin as he appeared to be scanning the windows of the homes while walking. Fact, Martin was over six feet tall and not the timid little boy as viewed by a picture six years ago. Fact, the photo of Zimmerman was taken a few years ago when he was booked at the local jail. Fact, Martin did not have any lacerations or bruises on his body. Fact, Zimmerman had cuts on the back of the head and front his face. This information was supplied by the hospital. If Martin attacked Zimmerman and was on top of him punching and hitting his head, Zimmerman had the legal right, as self defense, to protect himself is just that. It must be subjectively reasonable under the particular circunstances, as the "reasonably" appeared to you at the time, even if you were mistaken. "Subjectively", means what you think. "Objectively" means how others will analyze yhour actions later on based upon reason. In other words, if you make a mistake, it must be a mistake that a "resonable person" could also have made knowing the same facts as you did at the time of the incident. This is not an easy definition since the reasonableness of your actions will be judged by others, rather than yourself, at a point in time well after the event has transpired. Sad to say, this has turned into a racial issue and his attorney concurs with this type of news media. As I stated earlier, I was not there and and as far as Zimmerman is concerned, he acted according to the Florida statues on Stand Your Ground Law and self defense. The Prosecutor should have her decision by Friday on whether she will prosecute or find him innocent by Florida Statues.

Nick

 

[to9]

This is the case in Florida as well.

Same in MN. As has been already said this mess is going to hurt gun ownership in gen. as well as laws . Gun owners are looked upon as funatics already when in fact we are some of the most level headed people out there . A new power will make some people get a big head in situations ,like a promotion in a job . Just an example .The news media always makes it what it wants and people with nothing else to do but like to be heard jump in the limelight weather they know anything or not . Which seems to be going on in the news now which ends up being the guns did it or a race thing .What ever happened to let the law sort it out and except it . Sick of all the BS I guess .

 

[TAKJR]

Hobby-Gunsmith:

I am not against anything that you are saying but if one doesn't know the facts, how can you state facts?

I too, know nothing about this issue except Zimmerman is in trouble, period (that's obvious to everyone). All of the information I have came from the media too.

Having a gun on your person means you don't get into situations that the police are better able to handle. Call 911.....follow in your car.....that's it. You did your job as a "responsible" neighborhood "watch" person. After that, whatever you do, you are responsible for.

You are not "Miracle Man" (remember that Miami Vice episode?)

Now that you made contact with a "suspicious" person you were following and a struggle occurs between the pair and the other party is bigger, stronger and pounding your head into the ground to the point of severe trauma and possibly imminent death, then you did what you had to do at that moment, right, I get it....you stood your ground....but.....could you have "avoided" the entire incident in the first place?

Yes.

That is my point.

Now look at where you are at?

There is a fine line here that Zimmerman crossed, that he didn't have to cross.

Terry stops are for the "police" to make, not armed civilians.

You are not a police officer. You are an extra set of "eyes."

Now the entire world (thanks to the media) has its "eyes" on you!

I would not wish that on anyone.

I do feel sorry for Mr. Zimmerman, but when the facts come out (however long it takes) pro/con Zimmerman, his life is changed forever.

He should have just "watched."

To me......it is as simple as that.

TAKJR

 

[Lost Lake]

@TAKJR

Who's to say he wasn't just watching? I thought Zimmerman's story was he got out to check a street sign so he could relay to the police which direction the kid went and then he was jumped.

The point is we don't know and people are calling for his head on a platter. They want him to prove he is innocent instead of someone proving he is guilty. The investigating PD let him walk. They had him in cuffs and at the station. They investigated his story and let him go. I trust the PD made the right decision unless something comes up differently.

The media is changing what the public hears to raise the level of hype so they get better stories. You cannot believe what you hear. Sad but true.

 

[Chuck1217]

I saw on the news yesterday they are not sending the case to a grand jury. One of Martin's- spokes people?- says it's because they are going to charge him. But it may be because they AREN'T going to charge him. Once again, as Lost Lake says, we simply don't know. It's a shame that some folks put so much pressure on cops/prosecutors, sometimes 'justice' is more like crowd rule than real justice. Whether he's guilty or not, it's not up to the crowd.

 

[TAKJR]

Lost Lake:

His phone call to the police that he is "watching" where this guy is going, then giving a detailed description of him proves (only) that he was "initially" doing his job, but after that....the screams and shot (or shots) heard in the background proves contact was made somehow. Who contacted who first, we don't know. Just understand that no one had the right to stop any citizen for anything, unless a crime is being committed in his or her presence and even then (if you can safely do so first) call the police. Masaad Ayoob will tell you up-front, call 911 first. I know people poo-poo him a lot, but it is the truth.

Myself, as a cop, can follow-up on that "suspicious person" call and make an investigative stop...and possibly frisk the "suspicious person" (now a Terry Stop) for a weapon or weapon (only) if I feel I may be in some danger.

Different scenario, I know, but that scenario still involves Zimmerman, but only as an "eye" witness to "possible" criminal activity. A can of tea and Skittles found, good, name check for warrants done and clear, good, now go home and stay off of "private" property. That's the "extent" of contact for the police. Perhaps a "contact" card will be recorded just in case the "suspicious" person is seen in the area again at a future date or time.

If Trevon had burglarized the area in the past, that's the past.

If Trevon was seen coming out of a window of a building, the scenario then changes, even for Zimmerman, because, in essence, he may have caught a burglary suspect (felony) and Zimmerman "could" detain Trevon for the police. I would advise against that and just watch where he is running.

Off duty police officers too, are better "witnesses" than confronters, because they can be shot by on-duty officers. They "can" be shot. I am sure (statistically) that 80-90%
of off duty officers that make arrests come out ok (hopefully) but again, that is the risk they (we) take when we pin on the badge.

I am not saying for anyone to be passive and let someone beat the **** out of you. But.....if you are armed....that raises the stakes and consequences, right or wrong....if you use that gun.

I am saying that when you are armed...."think" before you act first...think fast....understand the consequences of your actions. A person's death by the hands of another is a serious matter and should never be taken lightly.

I now heard that shortly Zimmerman is believed to be charged with Manslaughter by the special prosecutor (ABC NEWS). Again, nothing official yet but remember this much.

Whatever ACTUALLY happened, Zimmerman was a NEIGHBORHOOD WATCH PERSON, not a police officer.

Good luck to him.

He will need it.

TAKJR

 

[geoff40]

The report now says he is in custody, and he is being charged with 2nd degree murder.

http://news.yahoo.com/apnewsbreak-murder-charge-trayvon-martin-case-214123361.html

 

[venomballistics]

The report now says he is in custody, and he is being charged with 2nd degree murder.

APNewsBreak: Murder charge in Trayvon Martin case - Yahoo! News

yup .. I knew it would happen eventually.
Now lets all chill out and wait for the real facts to surface so that we can add to the CCW textbooks chapter about how to screw up.

 

[labworm]

I guess now the real trial begins and the real evidence will come forward.

 

[TAKJR]

If he is found to have made additional "inflamatory" statements on the 911 phone tapes, his "mind set" will be brought up in court.

As now stated, let's see how the justice system works.

TAKJR

 

[to9]

Yes he is arrested and chged 2nd deg. murder and his lawyers also quit . Currious why his lawyers quit unless they were not qualified to handle crimminal cases . I would have thought going in it was a possibilty of the outcome .