Standard Pressure Expansion in 38 special

[WR Moore]

I am someone who enjoys practicing with what I carry as much as possible so I will have to weigh the pros and cons of that issue.

OK, the ammo companies are currently making paired training and defense labeled ammo. The only difference is that one has a non-expanding bullet and the other has a (hopefully) expanding bullet. So long as your practice ammo has about the same weight bullet and velocity as your carry ammo, that's good enough for practice/training.

That goes even for semis so long as you ran enough of your chosen defense load through your example to make sure it works in your gun.

 

[cmj8591]

I'm sorry but I'm confused as to.why everyone seems to be so concerned or even obsessed with bullet expansion?

Absent a central nervous system hit, the bigger the hole, the more it bleeds, the faster the blood pressure drops, the quicker the bad guy stops doing whatever it was that caused him to be shot in the first place. Add to that, the bigger the frontal cross section, the more resistance it creates inside the body and more energy is transferred to the target that can disrupt nerve transmission which also helps to stop the bad guy. A bullet that does not remain in the target transfers energy to whatever it comes into contact with outside of the target which is wasted relative to causing damage to the intended target. That's why the 158 grain round nose was such a poor performer. It tended to drill a .358" hole and then continue on to whatever it hit next. The reason the SWC 158 grain performed better than the round nose is that the blunt nose transferred it's energy to the target more efficiently. That's why we pay attention to expansion issue.

 

[rockquarry]

Absent a central nervous system hit, the bigger the hole, the more it bleeds, the faster the blood pressure drops, the quicker the bad guy stops doing whatever it was that caused him to be shot in the first place. Add to that, the bigger the frontal cross section, the more resistance it creates inside the body and more energy is transferred to the target that can disrupt nerve transmission which also helps to stop the bad guy. A bullet that does not remain in the target transfers energy to whatever it comes into contact with outside of the target which is wasted relative to causing damage to the intended target. That's why the 158 grain round nose was such a poor performer. It tended to drill a .358" hole and then continue on to whatever it hit next. The reason the SWC 158 grain performed better than the round nose is that the blunt nose transferred it's energy to the target more efficiently. That's why we pay attention to expansion issue.

The water is usually muddied somewhat when you mix textbook gunfighting theory with what actually happens in the world we live in. Some of each may be more realistic. There will always be the argument about the bullet expending all its energy in the target vs. making an exit hole. Either sounds quite painful and potentailly fatal to me.

Learning to shoot well remains more important than any abstract "knowledge" but many would probably argue the point. If you do well using standard velocity, +P, roundnose, SWC, or anything else in your gun, have at it.

 

[mike campbell]

I did this about 20 years ago. And did it with 2" snubbies for about 20 years before that.

I'm down to my last 8,000 of these bullets.

 

[cmj8591]

The water is usually muddied somewhat when you mix textbook gunfighting theory with what actually happens in the world we live in. Some of each may be more realistic. There will always be the argument about the bullet expending all its energy in the target vs. making an exit hole. Either sounds quite painful and potentailly fatal to me.

Learning to shoot well remains more important than any abstract "knowledge" but many would probably argue the point. If you do well using standard velocity, +P, roundnose, SWC, or anything else in your gun, have at it.

Shot placement trumps everything else. The problem comes when things get difficult. Having to shoot through heavy clothes, not having a center mass torso to aim for, drugged up perp who isn't feeling any pain and a million things that I can't even think of. Having a bullet expand or dump as much energy as possible into a target will give a bit more room for error. The idea isn't necessarily to be fatal but more about making the bad guy stop what he is doing as fast as possible. Disrupting the nervous system and dropping the blood pressure is how you get to that point. The books are full of examples of people taking multiple hits that were fatal but the person was able to fight on for a while and continue to do damage. But you are right on point with shooting skill. It doesn't matter what kind of bullet you have if you miss.

 

[Pointblank2U]

If you re-watch Harrell's videos on standard pressure 38 special you will see that the old 158 grain 38 Special round nose lead did pretty well. It had bit more penetration than preferable, but it seemed to tumble. The same round in semi-wadcutter would probably be ideal in your old 36.

 

[LVSteve]

Absent a central nervous system hit, the bigger the hole, the more it bleeds, the faster the blood pressure drops, the quicker the bad guy stops doing whatever it was that caused him to be shot in the first place. Add to that, the bigger the frontal cross section, the more resistance it creates inside the body and more energy is transferred to the target that can disrupt nerve transmission which also helps to stop the bad guy. A bullet that does not remain in the target transfers energy to whatever it comes into contact with outside of the target which is wasted relative to causing damage to the intended target. That's why the 158 grain round nose was such a poor performer. It tended to drill a .358" hole and then continue on to whatever it hit next. The reason the SWC 158 grain performed better than the round nose is that the blunt nose transferred it's energy to the target more efficiently. That's why we pay attention to expansion issue.

And yet you will see some pundits who suggest that this is great. The perp bleeds out the back as well as the front.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Absent a central nervous system hit, the bigger the hole, the more it bleeds, the faster the blood pressure drops, the quicker the bad guy stops doing whatever it was that caused him to be shot in the first place. Add to that, the bigger the frontal cross section, the more resistance it creates inside the body and more energy is transferred to the target that can disrupt nerve transmission which also helps to stop the bad guy. A bullet that does not remain in the target transfers energy to whatever it comes into contact with outside of the target which is wasted relative to causing damage to the intended target. That's why the 158 grain round nose was such a poor performer. It tended to drill a .358" hole and then continue on to whatever it hit next. The reason the SWC 158 grain performed better than the round nose is that the blunt nose transferred it's energy to the target more efficiently. That's why we pay attention to expansion issue.

For civilian SD, like I said, a good shot is a good shot. We are not law enforcement or in the military needing the target to drop right there. Most bad guys aren't superman and when hit they don't want to be hit again so they stop. Of course drugs changes everything but then again we practice the failure drill for a reason. Any bullet which breaches the cranial cavity will give you that nervous system stop you reference.

Today with all the Internet chatter, far too many people over complicate SD. Train for something we all wish will never happen and learn how to shoot your gun very well. This will keep you alive, not some special bullet which is the new star of the month.

Shoot only when you must but be sure to hit what you shoot at.

 

[Brian Parrish]

Skills not gear!

I carry an older Model 36 that can't or at least isn't recommend to use +P in and I've done a decent bit of testing and research. From my understanding of Lucky Gunner tests on ballistics gel and Paul Harrell tests on his famous meat targets the consensus seems to be that most stuff doesn't reliably expand with standard pressure. From both sources, one of the very few that seemed to was Hornady FTX 110 grain JHP which is what I use currently. The only other from Lucky Gunner that did is Federal Micro HST which I cannot find anywhere.

Paul seemed to indicate for penetration the FTX may be lacking on bigger targets, this he seemed to suggest 158 grain semi wadcutter or wadcutter if you are limited to standard pressure. While not something that keeps me up at night, I do want to make sure the ammo I'm carrying is capable of, God forbid, I had to use it.

My questions are essentially:
1. Is Hornady FTX in standard pressure going to reliably expand/penetrate for defensive use in a snub like my Model 36? If so what would be a way I could test this myself affordably? (I was thinking water jugs stacked up)

2. Am I just better off getting a more modern scandium or aluminum hammerless revolver for my carry needs that can use +P?

Is the ftx going to reliably expand? If it doesn't so what? It will still do the job as well as any non-expanding bullet, No? Chris Baker's testing at Luckygunner.com showed that at standard pressure 38Spl you could get reliable penetration, or expansion, but not both. What you are trying to do is open a hole in the wall of an artery/vein. The bullet needs to be fat enough to hit an artery as it passes through. It needs to go deep enough to hit the artery in the torso. What if some expanded rounds went shallow but other rounds went really deep? Just send them all downrange and let 'em do that.

The real question is how are you going to fight with it? You may want to watch Mas Ayoob's YouTube video regarding "the New York reload." He draws the j frame first! He pours it into the target while advancing. (Remember, the j frame is a short-range weapon; the 38Spl is a close-range caliber. Furthermore, because aggressive attacking movement is thought to be the best survivable tactic, and because I have trained for it, I am going to close with my enemy.) The snub he then drops on the ground as he draws his 3rd Gen. He carries mags for his 5906 and does the standard mag swap.

Mine is a Model 38 Airweight Bodyguard. I have it loaded with LSWC 158 grain rounds. Because of the hammer shroud' it slides smoothly out of the pocket. My dear friend has a Model 36 and with no hammer shroud he gets his out faster than I can get mine out. Not sure how he does that. He can hit a squirrel at 20 yards. Not sure how he does that either. The airweight does not pull my breeches down; it is so very light. I can put my hand in my pocket, and nobody is the wiser.

You should consider whether this tactic makes sense because you can load your new scandium Centennial with +P ammo, it would disappear in your pocket, and it would come out faster than anything your assailant would ever be expecting.

Please correct me anyone. That is how I learn.

 

[rosewood]

I carry an older Model 36 that can't or at least isn't recommend to use +P in and I've done a decent bit of testing and research. From my understanding of Lucky Gunner tests on ballistics gel and Paul Harrell tests on his famous meat targets the consensus seems to be that most stuff doesn't reliably expand with standard pressure. From both sources, one of the very few that seemed to was Hornady FTX 110 grain JHP which is what I use currently. The only other from Lucky Gunner that did is Federal Micro HST which I cannot find anywhere.

I too keep the FTX in my 38 special revolvers. From the Luckygunners test, it is the best penetration vs expansion option in the 38. I trust their testing, no need to try it out myself. Only testing I do is verify function, accuracy and my ability to stay on target.

Rosewood

 

[SuperMan]

In .35 caliber guns with less than 1100 fps impact velocity I look for penetration over expansion. I have a bunch of friends and acquaintances who have shot both people animals and things with .38 Special +P loads and the bullets just deformed a little.

One friend shot a guy in the neck at less than 10 yards with a FBI load out of a M60...the bullet stuck in the guys neck. And he ran off.

Only .38 ammo that gets carried in my M649-2, 60-1 or 2.5" Colt Diamondback are the Buffalo Bore, Underwood or Lost River +P 158 HPs or solids... They all run 1000+- fps from a 2"...

For the couple of boxes of ammo those guns will see over their lifetime it isn't going to hurt anything...except for maybe the one who is on the receiving end...

Bob