Stopping Power-An Education
- Thread starter Kanewpadle
- Start date
ColbyBruce
Member
keith44spl, I thought I was the only person who remembered SuperVel ammo!! I loved the .38 Super ammo.
Sledge276
US Veteran
I agree that shot placement is a huge factor, but I still like something with a little punch to it.
If you hit a man in the danglies with a bean flip he's going down, but it's much more interesting when a 45 ACP takes his danglies out through his backside.
If you hit a man in the danglies with a bean flip he's going down, but it's much more interesting when a 45 ACP takes his danglies out through his backside.
Sledge276
US Veteran
[QUOTE My son (11) asked if his M&P15-22 would be a suitable defense weapon for him.
I told him it definitely would! And I went on to explain that he is comfortable with it, he is deadly accurate, it holds 25 rounds of 22LR, and no bad guy is going to stand and take the barrage of bullets coming from that thing.
My daughter (15) was scared by herself a few nights ago and grabbed my 4513 to keep by her side until I came home. Even though we have done some training work, she was unable to tell which third gen was the one she was used to, and she did not have the weapon loaded although the mag was full.
We immediately went through a learning session of loading and clearing the weapon, safety checks and handling. She found she could not easily operate the slide on the .45. She will stick with the M&P9 and for a back-up weapon I have a M&P22 available in the house. I also won't keep the third gens together as they look alike to the novice.
I think it is important to use a gun you are comfortable with no matter what the caliber. I have seen my kids squint and even look away when firing a larger hand gun, and I'd rather have them keep their eyes focused and aiming with a smaller gun. QUOTE]
Dern right!
I told him it definitely would! And I went on to explain that he is comfortable with it, he is deadly accurate, it holds 25 rounds of 22LR, and no bad guy is going to stand and take the barrage of bullets coming from that thing.
My daughter (15) was scared by herself a few nights ago and grabbed my 4513 to keep by her side until I came home. Even though we have done some training work, she was unable to tell which third gen was the one she was used to, and she did not have the weapon loaded although the mag was full.
We immediately went through a learning session of loading and clearing the weapon, safety checks and handling. She found she could not easily operate the slide on the .45. She will stick with the M&P9 and for a back-up weapon I have a M&P22 available in the house. I also won't keep the third gens together as they look alike to the novice.
I think it is important to use a gun you are comfortable with no matter what the caliber. I have seen my kids squint and even look away when firing a larger hand gun, and I'd rather have them keep their eyes focused and aiming with a smaller gun. QUOTE]
Dern right!
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Sledge276
US Veteran
Some of the best advice I've received on ammo is try several different brands and loads and see what shoots best through your gun. It might get a little expensive, but that's really about the only way you'll find out what works best for you.
beemerrider
Member
Excellent presentation Kanewpaddle!
Thank you,
Beemerrider in Oregon
Thank you,
Beemerrider in Oregon
Yiogo
US Veteran
- Joined
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- 101
There are some kernels of wisdom in the video. Well, I like to shoot and go to the range 1 or 2 times per week. In particular I like to shoot the metal silhouettes of animals. When I take my 1911 45 ACP shooting 230 grain bullets the heavy targets go down quickly and with authority. No messing around. When I take a 38 spl the big heavy ones may or may not go down. But my 1911 weighs almost 3 lbs loaded my 637-2 is may be 17 oz loaded. Guess which one I carry? It's a compromise. Incidentally the 1911 has less recoil than the 637-2. Tell you what... that 1911 has some serious stopping power but it's too heavy and I do shoot the 637 well. When I carry the J frame goes with me. It is my personal choice. My remarks are not intended to influence anyone's choice. Yiogo
38 Special is not "enemic" (and quit YELLING!). The muzzle energy falls because of the short barrel used in snub J-frames. Longer barreled 38 Specials (4"-6") let the 38 Special develop the same 400+ lbs-ft of muzzle energy the other service rounds do.
Wadcutters suck as a defensive round, as has been shown by so many manufacturers so many times for so many years now. (Guys asks for a "magic bullet" as you put it, and you advise wadcutters???) WCs lack muzzle energy ("low recoil target round", as you put it)-that 148 gr wadcutter you recommend at 600 fps out of a snub offers 118 ft-lbs of ME. Hardcast won't expand, and soft lead WCs lead up the barrel fast.
To the OP: HPs were adopted to avoid overpenetration, use a modern HP to assure adequate penetration out of your 642. Do not use a "low recoil target round" for self defense in a J-frame. Such "advice" ignores 40 years and millions of dollars of research and development in bullet design. Speer's excellent Gold Dot Short Barrel load develops a reliable 860 fps out of a snub barrel for 222 ft-lbs of ME, and uses powders specifically for short barreled guns.
7shooter
Member
Ayoob has written that among standard pressure 38 Special rounds the Federal Nyclads stand out. He said that when police officers used them in their j-frames they were satisfied with the results on the street. They are not to be found on the internet right now but Federal says they will be making another run of them in Feb. I use them in my Ti j-frame.
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Bottom line: Pick the largest round you can shoot well. Bigger is better, but not at the expense of reasonable accuracy/shooting speed. To borrow from an old competition saying, You can't miss fast enough to win.
Also keep in mind that you can train to become proficient with larger defensive rounds. Really, rounds like the 40 S&W and 45 ACP are pussycats.
Also keep in mind that you can train to become proficient with larger defensive rounds. Really, rounds like the 40 S&W and 45 ACP are pussycats.
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The first video seemed a decently simplistic perspective from a well known and respected trainer with LE experience. No surprises.
He apparently felt it a good idea to make a followup video, which has been posted ...
Stopping Power Part 2 - YouTube
The second video goes into a little further detail, but again, it seems to be an intentionally simplistic perspective for general internet audiences.
Having known and listened to a fair number of LE folks who have been involved in on & off-duty shootings, I haven't heard much emphasis placed on specific calibers, brands of ammunition/hollowpoint types, capacity or even specific brands/designs of handguns promoted.
Instead, the two primary subjects that seem to be mentioned most often have been:
The importance of making aimed/accurate hits on armed criminal attackers.
Having(developing) the proper state of mind to allow someone to properly & effectively function under stress, and which enables them to access the training & tactics they've previously learned & practiced.
As a firearms instructor, one of the best things I've ever heard said after someone has been involved in a lawful shooting incident has been that the "training works".
Another time when I was demonstrating a technique to some instructors, I enjoyed hearing one of them (who had been himself involved in 2 lawful shootings) comment that he wished he'd known that technique before he'd been involved in his shooting incidents.
Training & mindset. Knowledge of the laws. Pretty important topics, I'd think.
The specific caliber, ammunition and handgun are rather more in the way of equipment issues.
If you have a choice, suit yourself ... but don't let the equipment issues needlessly distract you from arguably more critical considerations.
If you don't have a choice (issued equipment for employment, or restrictions resulting from licensing, local laws, etc), then put your focus and attention on those important issues over which you may have some control, such as training, mindset & proper practice.
It probably wouldn't hurt to become familiar with the recommended maintenance practices offered by the firearm manufacturer, either.
You can buy shiny ammunition in nicely designed & eye-catching packages. Training & mindset? Not so easily.
Just some thoughts ...
He apparently felt it a good idea to make a followup video, which has been posted ...
Stopping Power Part 2 - YouTube
The second video goes into a little further detail, but again, it seems to be an intentionally simplistic perspective for general internet audiences.
Having known and listened to a fair number of LE folks who have been involved in on & off-duty shootings, I haven't heard much emphasis placed on specific calibers, brands of ammunition/hollowpoint types, capacity or even specific brands/designs of handguns promoted.
Instead, the two primary subjects that seem to be mentioned most often have been:
The importance of making aimed/accurate hits on armed criminal attackers.
Having(developing) the proper state of mind to allow someone to properly & effectively function under stress, and which enables them to access the training & tactics they've previously learned & practiced.
As a firearms instructor, one of the best things I've ever heard said after someone has been involved in a lawful shooting incident has been that the "training works".
Another time when I was demonstrating a technique to some instructors, I enjoyed hearing one of them (who had been himself involved in 2 lawful shootings) comment that he wished he'd known that technique before he'd been involved in his shooting incidents.
Training & mindset. Knowledge of the laws. Pretty important topics, I'd think.
The specific caliber, ammunition and handgun are rather more in the way of equipment issues.
If you have a choice, suit yourself ... but don't let the equipment issues needlessly distract you from arguably more critical considerations.
If you don't have a choice (issued equipment for employment, or restrictions resulting from licensing, local laws, etc), then put your focus and attention on those important issues over which you may have some control, such as training, mindset & proper practice.
It probably wouldn't hurt to become familiar with the recommended maintenance practices offered by the firearm manufacturer, either.
You can buy shiny ammunition in nicely designed & eye-catching packages. Training & mindset? Not so easily.
Just some thoughts ...
