Strange FTF on .44 magnum Stealth Hunter

[michaelnel]

Yesterday I had some kind of strange failures to fire on my Stealth Hunter.

It happened maybe 4-5 times, (I shot a total of about 200 rounds though, so it is occasional) where I would shoot a cylinder full of pretty hot loads (16.4gr VV105 under a 240gr Hornady 240gr XTP, CCI 300 primer, Starline cases).

I would fire five rounds in SA mode and then get a FTF... BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG click. At first I thought I had counted wrong. Opened the cylinder and get this... there would be one cartridge where the primer had not been struck at all. Not a light strike, but not struck at all. And to make matters stranger, the unstruck round would be sitting at the 4 o'clock position (viewing the cylinder from the rear, taking care not to rotate it as I swung it open). I guess it is possible that the cylinder rotated as I swung it open too, so I will be more careful about this if it happens again.

Every time it happened it was five bangs, and the sixth was a click. Every time, the unfired round was at 4 o'clock (I would expect it to be at 12 o'clock, unless I am misthinking this). It appears that it is failing to rotate the cylinder, or rotating it more than one position.

If I then rotated the cylinder so the unfired round was next (1 o'clock) and then fired it SA, it fired, every time, so the ammo is good.

We have worked on the gun. We did a trigger job following Jerry Micelek's video and the Kuhnhausen book. It has a Wolff lighter mainspring and trigger return spring. Trigger pulls a are light, but not crazy light (SA=2 3/4lbs, DA=8 1/2lbs). But if it was related to springs I would expect it to manifest as light strikes, and that isn't what is happening. We did not do any work at all on the hand or the ratchets on the cylinder.

My plan is to next time it happens put a Sharpie mark on the ejection star of the cylinder where the unfired round is. Then when it happens again, see if it is the same hole in the cylinder.

Any thoughts on this strange problem?

 

[michaelnel]

Any thoughts on this strange problem?

... apparently not.

I shot it again today, and the problem was worse. Sometimes it would have this FTF on 2 out of 6 rounds in a cylinder full.

I decided to completely strip it down. I think I rather grossly overlubed it last time I had it apart. There was lots of black crud stuck to all the parts and in particular, the hand.

So my plan is to clean everything and put it back together either dry or lubed very sparingly. The only reason I say dry is that when we first disassembled it straight from S&W's manufacturing, it was dry as a bone... no lube anywhere. Perhaps that's the way it's supposed to be, but it sure goes counter to everything I thought I knew about machinery.

Make sense?

 

[scooter123]

To me it sounds like the cylinder isn't being "carried up". My first suspect for a cause would be a rebound spring that is too week to fully reset the trigger. Second possible cause is a Hand Spring that isn't installed properly. Third possible cause is a Pawl on the ejector star that is missing or damaged. Fourth possible cause is a buildup of gunk as you have noted.

Test for first possibility. Push the trigger forward with a finger after EVERY shot fired. If it fires 6 times without fault you need to install a stonger Rebound Spring or do more polishing in the frame recess with 1500 grit wet sandpaper.

Test for second possible cause. Point the barrel straight down every time you cock the gun. If it fires 6 times without fault your Hand Spring needs a close look.

Test for third possible cause. Get out a magnifying glass and take a close look at every single Pawl in the Ejector Star. If you see one Pawl that is obviously different from the rest you need to contact S&W for warranty service.

Test for fourth possible cause. Clean the firearm until it's bone dry. Then apply just one small drop of oil to the pivot pin for the hammer, one small drop to the pivot pin for the trigger, one small drop to the cylinder stop, and finally one small drop to the rebound slide. If the firearm functions perfectly you have found your solution.

 

[michaelnel]

Thanks so much for your response, scooter123.

When I put the Wolff springs in it came with three rebound springs, 13, 14, and 15 lbs. I put in the 13, fully intending to go to heavier ones if I ran into problems with the 13. It never occurred to me that the rebound spring would have anything to do with this issue, but thinking about it, it seems like it might.

So, I went ahead and violated the Scientific Method (changing two things at once) and put the 14lb spring in and added the 4 drops of lubrication you advised.

Part of that was my feeling that machinery should not run completely dry, and I can't see any way that four drops of oil in those locations could have any negative effect, so I went ahead with it.

I won't be able to get out and shoot it again until next Monday, but I will report back as to my results when I do the four tests.

Thanks again!
Michael

 

[michaelnel]

I went over all the suggested tests and fixes and it's still doing it even with stock springs back in it. Sometimes it even does it twice in one cylinder full of ammo. It doesn't do it when I shoot light loads (7gr Unique under a 240gr LSWC), but it sure does with hot ones (24 gr of 296 under a 240gr JSP).

There are burrs on both top and bottom of each ratchet (top and bottom as seen with the cylinder in normal horizontal position). I suspect my steady diet of hot loads (not over max, but still full power loads) may have been too much for the gun, and I've shot 'er loose. I have had it since mid-January of this year and estimate I have put about 2000 full power .44 mags through it during that short time. (Hey, I bought it to shoot it!).

I wrote to S&W today and am awaiting an RMA. I'll let them have a go at it.

Thanks for all the help, I will report back after The Mother Ship sees it.

 

[michaelnel]

I got through to S&W customer service after a 35 minute hold time on the phone today. They are sending me a FedEx return tag. The guy said it may take 5-7 days for the tag to arrive, he gave me packaging instructions.

When I asked him how long it takes for them to turn it around after they get it he said "He's pretty fast, he should be done with it in a couple weeks".

He did say "he", not "they". Do you suppose they have only one guy doing these repairs?

I also asked them to look into closing up the barrel to cylinder gap, which on mine fits a 0.010" feeler gauge but a 0.011" won't go. That seems pretty excessive to me. No wonder it blows so much fire out the sides and cuts the top strap on the frame. Easy enough for them to close it up, not easy for me.

 

[chipking]

The 44 magnum was fitted with a lock that was supposed to prevent cylinder unlock and rollback when shot with heavy loads. It is not uncommon and is very prevalent in the light weight 396 in 44 special as well when shooting heavy loads. I don't know if that lock still exists in the newer 44 mags.
With your trigger held back see if you can unlatch the cylinder. If you can than there is no lock or it is defective.
Chip King

 

[michaelnel]

Thanks for the suggestion. I checked it, it stays locked with the trigger held back. I can't unlatch it.

 

[tomcatt51]

Does the same thing happen if someone else shoots the same loads thru your gun? People do funny things that they don't realize they're doing while the gun recoils. The videos of 500s "doubling" being a case in point. With the 500s I don't think this is something the gun is doing but what the shooters trigger finger (and grip) is doing trying to control the gun during recoil. An extreme case, yes, but a good example...

 

[michaelnel]

Yes, my buddy and I both shot the gun last weekend. Same ammo, same conditions (mostly using a scope with sandbags), and he had the same percentage of failures to carry up as I did.

It's a good thought though, thanks.

 

[HammerLock]

Gun probs

First of all, sorry to hear this is happening to such a nice revolver as I have the same model and love it! It seems as you describe, the cylinder is over rotating and you engage an already stricken cartridge. I'm a revolver novice but maybe mark the suspect cylinders when it fails to fire, then correlate these rotation slippages to a damaged star gear (?). Like a previous poster said. Given the condition worsens with use (all else equal) you very well could have some damaged components. Maybe the failure mode is within the gun due to hotter hand reloads loads that, over time, have worn down or damaged something. I'd be curious to see what S&W says after checking it out.

Keep us posted!

HL

 

[michaelnel]

The Stealth Hunter arrived at the Mother Ship yesterday. I will definitely report back when they have responded.

 

[michaelnel]

My gun has been back there for over a week now, and I haven't heard anything from them. Do they normally communicate on these jobs or do they just fix it and send it back?

I realize a week isn't very long, but I have never sent a gun to them before so I don't know what to expect.

 

[peterthefish]

My gun has been back there for over a week now, and I haven't heard anything from them. Do they normally communicate on these jobs or do they just fix it and send it back?

I realize a week isn't very long, but I have never sent a gun to them before so I don't know what to expect.

Assuming you got the return label via email, once it ships out you'll get an email to let you know its on the way. That was the first notice I got on my 629 I sent back in Feb - took about two weeks round trip.

 

[michaelnel]

OK thanks. Yes, I did get the return label via email, so I guess I know what to expect.

 

[michaelnel]

Coming up on 2 weeks now without a peep out of S&W, hope they get it back to me soon. I have other guns, but naturally this is my favorite one.

 

[peterthefish]

Well, good news or bad I just checked my notes and it was closer to 3 weeks round trip...

 

[jimmyj]

Hi:
1. clean the internals completely
2. Re-install all the original factory springs and parts.
3. test fire with new factory ammo.
If the weapon works 100%, discard the gunsmith books, after market parts, and admit you are not a gunsmith and cannot improve on what the factory designers and workers manufactured.

*** If you ever do this again, your Mother will be notified !

 

[michaelnel]

Hi

Thank you so much for your valuable insights, jj. I would never have thought of any of that without your assistance.

BTW, my mother is dead.

 

[Poke]

It looks like at this point all you can do is stare at S&W hunters on the internet and wait for yours to return....

 

[michaelnel]

They've had it for over two weeks, now they say it will be finished in another 7-10 working days. Pretty slow for a warranty repair on a $1600 revolver.

 

[michaelnel]

I hadn't received any email to know to expect it, but FedEx dropped off the gun this afternoon. The paperwork is puzzling, and I am not sure exactly what they did.

Under "Requested Service" it just shows the model and serial number of the gun, plus "CSRVLR CS Repairs - Revolvers". That's it, nothing at all about why I sent it to them.

Then under "Performed service:" it says "Evaluate / Repair" and "replace barrel"

Under that there is a long list of parts, including the grey plastic case and the red cable lock, each of which has the part number, description, and a place to mark it "Repaired" or "Replaced". NONE of the parts are checked for either Repaired or Replaced.

Then it says who created the service notification and who received the goods.

That's it. Nothing about fixing the failure to follow up stuff at all. I can tell they DID replace the barrel, because there were a couple small scratches on the original one on the under barrel rib, and the one on it now does not have those scratches.

The forcing cone has razor sharp edges and burrs just like the old one. However, they closed up the barrel to cylinder gap so it is now only a tight 0.004" (which is a big improvement over how it was when I sent it in).

I have not had a chance to shoot it yet, but the whole work order says nothing about the problem I sent it in for (failure to carry up). In addition, there are two deep scratches clear through the finish down to bare metal on the left side of the frame that most definitely were not there when I sent it in.

This is the worst job of documenting what they did I have ever seen on a repair. I hope they fixed it, but there is sure no indication that they did, plus they managed to put deep gouges all the way down to bare steel in the gun.

I am pretty darn disappointed in S&W at this point. This is one of their more expensive revolvers ($1619 MSRP). I would think it deserves a little more care than this.

Probably shoulda bought a Taurus.

 

[turbo38gn]

I hadn't received any email to know to expect it, but FedEx dropped off the gun this afternoon. The paperwork is puzzling, and I am not sure exactly what they did.

Under "Requested Service" it just shows the model and serial number of the gun, plus "CSRVLR CS Repairs - Revolvers". That's it, nothing at all about why I sent it to them.

Then under "Performed service:" it says "Evaluate / Repair" and "replace barrel"

Under that there is a long list of parts, including the grey plastic case and the red cable lock, each of which has the part number, description, and a place to mark it "Repaired" or "Replaced". NONE of the parts are checked for either Repaired or Replaced.

Then it says who created the service notification and who received the goods.

That's it. Nothing about fixing the failure to follow up stuff at all. I can tell they DID replace the barrel, because there were a couple small scratches on the original one on the under barrel rib, and the one on it now does not have those scratches.

The forcing cone has razor sharp edges and burrs just like the old one. However, they closed up the barrel to cylinder gap so it is now only a tight 0.004" (which is a big improvement over how it was when I sent it in).

I have not had a chance to shoot it yet, but the whole work order says nothing about the problem I sent it in for (failure to carry up). In addition, there are two deep scratches clear through the finish down to bare metal on the left side of the frame that most definitely were not there when I sent it in.

This is the worst job of documenting what they did I have ever seen on a repair. I hope they fixed it, but there is sure no indication that they did, plus they managed to put deep gouges all the way down to bare steel in the gun.

I am pretty darn disappointed in S&W at this point. This is one of their more expensive revolvers ($1619 MSRP). I would think it deserves a little more care than this.

Probably shoulda bought a Taurus.

Yep!!! I couldn't agree more!!@! ...... with your last statement..

 

[michaelnel]

Well, I got Taurus-level QA and Taurus-level CS, might as well have saved the money and bought the Taurus Raging Bull.

I sure won't ever buy another new S&W product after this.

 

[shawn mccarver]

Just so you know, the paper you got back is standard. I do not believe I have seen one in decades that gives specifics about what they did. If it works, who cares? Does it work?

 

[michaelnel]

Does it work?

I just got it back today. I decided it would not be a good idea to test it in my house. .44 magnums are rather loud, and the bullets would likely leave the room. I will test it when I have an opportunity to do so.

Are the gouges through the finish down to bare metal also something we can expect when we send expensive weapons back to the factory for unrelated warranty repairs?

 

[Badquaker]

Yup, standard operating procedure all the way. It's been this way for a long time. Your expectations and their sop didn't match.....oh well.

btw, the issue was probably the cylinder stop. You were skipping a round mid cylinder.

Good luck

 

[shawn mccarver]

I just got it back today. I decided it would not be a good idea to test it in my house. .44 magnums are rather loud, and the bullets would likely leave the room. I will test it when I have an opportunity to do so.

Are the gouges through the finish down to bare metal also something we can expect when we send expensive weapons back to the factory for unrelated warranty repairs?

I am sorry you are frustrated. Obviously, no one expects you to fire it in your house. And, no. Gouges down to bare metal are not to be expected. I am sure you will take that up with them first thing tomorrow. I certainly would. Good luck.

 

[michaelnel]

I've emailed them about the gouges. I don't want to sit on hold for 45 minutes to tell them about it.

 

[michaelnel]

I disassembled the gun today. Looks like they replaced most everything but the frame and the grips. It has the following new parts:

mim trigger
mim hammer
cylinder stop
cylinder
ratchet / extractor
hand
barrel
front sight

The trigger feels crunchy again, and all engagement surfaces are rough and crudely finished. Trigger effort on double action is very high and single action is much higher than it was. I am in the middle of moving my home so I don't have access to my Lyman trigger gauge, but the trigger feels pretty lousy.

I will put a couple hundred rounds through it the way it is to verify the failure to carry up problem is solved. After that, I think I'll sell it.