THE 12 GAUGE

[Echo40]

Hard to shoot .
A stray dog was attacking people walking on my street .
Policeman arrived , he removed his buttless , pistol stocked 12 ga. from car . Pointed out the dog who was trotting down the street towards the policeman , he held his fire untill the dog was about 6 feet away...point blank , fired and Missed , dog stopped and turned, he pumped and fired again ...point blank and missed again , pumps and dog starts to run..he's 10 feet away... policeman fires ...and misses again...policeman watches the dog dissapear behind a house...he calls animal control .
I talk to him...he doesn't like the "new toy" hard to aim and hard to rack...he wants his "old school" shotgun , with a buttstock back , new one looks cool and tactical and such but is just too hard to shoot accurately .
I'm old guy ...I'll stick with old school !
Gary

Let me guess, he was shooting from the hip without actually using the sights, wasn't he?

There are techniques to aiming/shooting pistol grip shotguns accurately, as illustrated in this video...

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLxOmvuY3Sk&t=309s[/ame]

 

[D Brown]

Striking Model 870!

Ah, riotguns, my weakness.
I've got a bunch including Winchester, Remington, Ithaca, High Standard, Stevens, S&W, and Benelli

I really like the stock on your Model 870. (The one in the middle photo.) The polished chrome bolt sets off the Parkerized finish as well. A truly attractive gun!

 

[LCC]

would like to pick up a moderate cost shotgun for HD. Have a repaired shoulder that doesn't like recoil, even 30-30 racks it.
Reccomendations for a model and load?

 

[Squarebutt]

would like to pick up a moderate cost shotgun for HD. Have a repaired shoulder that doesn't like recoil, even 30-30 racks it.
Reccomendations for a model and load?

A 20-gauge is more than enough for home defense, and a heavier one like an 870 Remington will recoil less than a lighter one like the Ithaca 37. Reduced-recoil buckshot is your best bet.

 

[Echo40]

would like to pick up a moderate cost shotgun for HD. Have a repaired shoulder that doesn't like recoil, even 30-30 racks it.
Reccomendations for a model and load?

.410 Bore, perhaps? It doesn't have much recoil, and can be easily fired without shouldering it too, (heck, I shoot it from a revolver) even if the recoil did prove too much for your repaired shoulder, it could always be shot using other methods.

Speaking of which, I would recommend looking into methods of firing shotguns without shouldering them. I already posted a video in this thread showcasing a few of such methods for use with pistol grip shotguns, but there are others as well.

For example:
https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/close-quarters-shotgun-technique/

 

[Rubone]

I like 870s, and each one is configured to suit its task.

Old Wingmaster with furniture off one of the modern ones, the original nice wood is stored away. My bird gun.
Marine Magnum with Choate sidefolder, the shop gun.
Youth model 20GA, pest control.
Old police trade in 3" express, 18" All purpose truck gun.
Express Tactical with Knox stock, house gun.
Older Express with slug barrel/rifle sights, you name it!

 

[tops]

Let me guess, he was shooting from the hip without actually using the sights, wasn't he?

There are techniques to aiming/shooting pistol grip shotguns accurately, as illustrated in this video...

]

If you have to hold it out in front of you so you look down the barrel why not have a stock to put on your shoulder? Larry

 

[Echo40]

If you have to hold it out in front of you so you look down the barrel why not have a stock to put on your shoulder? Larry

• Shorter OAL allowing it to more easily be maneuvered around in tight quarters and stored more easily/discretely.
• Lighter weight allowing it to be more easily carried on hikes or out in the wilderness where dangerous predators roam.
• Faster Deployment allowing it to be quickly snapped into position without having to worry about nestling it just right against your shoulder or it getting snagged somewhere along the way.
• Lesser felt recoil allowing it to be fired more comfortably because it isn't smacking into your shoulder when fired, nor is it smacking you in the palm due to the direction/orientation of the grip.

You might already have understood this had you actually watched the video first before rushing headlong into an attempted debate which I will indulge you no further in because I'm confident that any further replies coming from you will be equally ignorant, and I honestly don't care whether you agree with me or not.

 

[Broke Hoss]

I've carried the same issued 870 for most of my career & am trying to talk the PD into letting me buy it when I leave.

After an incident, a couple of the younger guys were making fun of me & my old shotgun. I asked which one of them were gonna shoot the hinges off the door so we could go inside. Neither had actually even thought about it....

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

The extended family had a 18' camper that several households took on trips. There was a choke point in the middle where the stove and sink were on one side and the closet and bathroom were on the other. I had an old Iver Johnson single shot 12 gauge that was an 18" Barrel & 28" OAL. That little shotgun was so handy in those tight spaces. I had a nylon slide on the butt that held 5-2 3/4 Fed. Premium No.4 Buck rounds (27- copper plated .24 pellets each). The no choke barrel patterned a true 1" per yard. (15 yards=15" pattern)

I had the wife practice (with an unloaded gun) getting the gun from the camper's closet to the exit. She never fire that gun, because the recoil would be too much to enjoy! But she fired the kid's 20 gauge single shots at backyard trap for reloading practice.

Tale from the past: August 1968, there was a riot inside the Ohio Penitentiary in Columbus, Ohio. Several guards had been captured and were held hostage. It was decided that the several foot thick stone wall would be breeched (at the same time as the roof of the neighboring cell block!) An assault team in 2 columns would charge through the breeched wall, and a Highway Patrol sniper team of 4 would repel from the roof. The sniper team's job was to shoot everyone standing in the area of the hostages. The assault team, one column was all armed, the rescue column was 3 armed men followed by medic, fireman and armed office, repeat a dozen times.

The Highway Patrol decided to issue all weapons to be used, but gave each man his choice of a M-2 Carbine, a 1928 Thompson with 30 round mags or one of several riot shotguns. My Father-in-Law was the first man and leader of the armed assault column, his weapon of choice was a Stevens 12 gauge pump and No.4 buckshot shells.

There are a number of interesting stories from that incident! One of them is; In the aftermath, every poisoner was taken to the exercise yard (small baseball field sized) and was to strip naked then lay down until all the cells were searched. One inmate tried to fight a Highway trooper, and came at him with an improvised knife. A point blank blast from a 12 gauge into the chest (with total penetration) ended the disagreement! With the dead inmate lying next to the "strip point", there were no more disagreements or protests from the remaining inmates!

As a follow up; all the guards were rescued without further major injury. Several inmates had "rescued" a guard held elsewhere are were in the process of smuggling him out when they were caught in the blast from breeching the outer wall, They protected the guard with their bodies from injury. (they were all transferred immediately to a different prison and were "early released" within 6 months!

From a prison ministry I was in later I knew one of the regular population inmates and one of the death row inmates of that time. I knew from family functions about 8 of the Columbus PD & Ohio Patrolman involved. My wife was just short of her 13th birthday, Her mom had shielded the kids from the news, and knew almost nothing of this until she was 35!

Epilogue: Columbus PD used Remington 870's for riot guns (they had 750 of them!) but my F-I-L always carried a Stevens for "special occasions" (I never had the nerve to ask, if it was the same gun from August of '68!)

Ivan

 

[firefighterjohn]

Got several as well, with my Mossberg 88 the first one I ever bought. Shot a friend's Mossberg 930 SPX...wow...8 12ga rounds in under 5 seconds...that's on my bucket list.

 

[Linejudgemick]

I grew up chasing pheasants and quail in rural Kansas and all of my shotguns came with wood furniture and field length barrels. That said, I did purchase an 18 1/2" barrel for a 500 Mossberg 20 gauge I have and put a light on it. I put it in the bedroom closet loaded with #3 buck shot and my bride of 28 years asked me "please take that shotgun out of our closet". So... back to the safe it went and using a handgun in a bedside lock box. I've got to figure out a system close by my wife will be okay with!

 

[KSDeputy]

I got my first shotgun when I was 10. Dad gave me a brand new Winchester .410 ga. As I am the oldest of three boys, my brother who is two years behind me got the .410 when he turned 10. I was twelve when Dad gave me a brand new Remington 20 ga. semi-auto. How I loved that gun. It was stolen when we left it at the weekend cabin. I got to shoot Dad's 12 ga. once. It knocked me down on my butt. I do not recall getting any more shotguns until I was grown, and became a deputy sheriff. I have had many shotguns since then. I presently have a semi-auto Remington 12 ga. 1100, and a Remington V3 Tac 13 in 12 ga. I have always loved shotguns.

 

[scoobysnacker]

If you have to hold it out in front of you so you look down the barrel why not have a stock to put on your shoulder? Larry

You can say that about pistols vs rifles, especially in the same caliber.

The argument is the same- one is smaller and more mobile, the other is bigger and more accurate inherently.

This is about as small as I want to go with 12 gauge.

 

[Borderboss]

Even though I love my ARs, that doesn't mean there isn't a 12-guage at hand in case something goes bump in the night. In my case, it's a KSG pump loaded with 14 rounds of Federal Reduced Velocity Law Enforcement with #1 Buck.

 

[forindooruseonly]

Now you have shotguns and then you have the Winchester Model 12.

I am a fan of Model 12s!

Here's one of mine, barrel shortened to 14 inches. It's great in hallways or tight spots, including vehicles.

 

[Rubone]

Besides the 870s I have a few others, a Stevens 311 in 20 from 1951, a Savage 24 in .223 over 20, A Rossi Overland open hammer coach in 12, and an L.C. Smith in 20. I guess I like shotguns!

 

[Indigo]

My truck gun is a Remington 11 Whippet style circa 1930. House gun is a Mossberg 500 Riot with a Choate stock. Field guns are Ithaca Flues SXS and Browning Auto 5.

 

[CLASSIC12]

I had a Winchester 1300 stainless marine

I just traded it for a 1300 defender

 

[Dump1567]

Back to Basics

I resisted buying this excellent condition consignment 870 Police when I saw it in my local shop for $425.

On Sale for $399 a week later. But "I've already got too many shotguns" I said to myself.

At $359 this week , I could no longer resist.

All my 870's currently have all the bells & whistles. I wanted just a basic model & this fit the bill.

 

[kmyers]

One that we would love to find is one of the replicas of the Winchester 1887 shotguns that you see at times. Better half does like the idea of a 12 gauge but with short arm length she admits that she would most likely short stroke it while with a lever action probably no issues.

 

[roo_ster]

I wish I could find a decent quality exposed hammer side by side 12 gauge or 10-gauge for home defense and or self-defense. On the low end, all that is available Chinese trash or $800 + Turkish guns imported by c z.

 

[Borderboss]

I wish I could find a decent quality exposed hammer side by side 12 gauge or 10-gauge for home defense and or self-defense. On the low end, all that is available Chinese trash or $800 + Turkish guns imported by c z.

It would seem that an exposed hammer gun would be somewhat slow to bring to bear when the need arises.

 

[D Brown]

Besides the 870s I have a few others, a Stevens 311 in 20 from 1951, a Savage 24 in .223 over 20, A Rossi Overland open hammer coach in 12, and an L.C. Smith in 20. I guess I like shotguns!

I like 'em too! My Shotguns

If you have some you like, take some photos to share with your fellow Forum Members when you have time.

 

[roo_ster]

It would seem that an exposed hammer gun would be somewhat slow to bring to bear when the need arises.

Maybe so if stored dry, but if stored with loaded chambers & hammers down, I see little difference relative to a pump stored cruiser ready.

What appeals to me in the SxS exposed hammer, double trigger shotgun for HD/SD is:
1. Simpler manual of arms relative to other repeaters
2. Store loaded indefinitely with no springs compressed
3. Lighter and shorter than pump or semi with same length bbl
4. Capability to use shorty buckshot & slug shells with no impact on function

I ended up building my wife a HD shotgun with a 12ga 870 Police Magnum using some innovative bits that she (as a smaller woman) could shoot relatively easily. But it would have been a straighter path with a double-barrel, double-trigger, exposed hammer shotgun. And the end product would have been lighter and shorter.

 

[shocker]

Are hammer guns drop safe?

 

[white cloud]

My shotguns don't need bells/whistles/lights/side saddles or hood scoops........All they need is a magazine full of shells and a steady hand.

I am in your camp. Simple is better for shotguns. I had a .22 and a Model 12 in 12 gauge as "my guns" when growing up (still have them). Pump shotguns makes sense to me. Running one is second nature and I have little doubt about the close range effectiveness. If things are not going well at 2:00 AM I hope my Mossberg is around.

 

[roo_ster]

Are hammer guns drop safe?

Good question. I do know NYC issued SxS shotguns up through the late part of the 20th century.

Another:
Are pump & semi-auto guns with internal hammers drop safe?

Last:
Does it matter for a long gun?

We're talking a drop on the muzzle from some height for a "non-drop safe" shotgun. Most long guns, rotated to be perpendicular to the earth from a carry position, are "already there" in many cases. Meaning, there is mighty little drop or distance over which to accelerate relative to a hand gun.

This issue, while interesting, may not be significant for HD/SD shotguns.

 

[cowboy4evr]

We only had one shotgun in the house as a boy growing up so it was what I started out shooting at a very young age . It had been my dad's grandfathers gun originally that had been passed down . An Ithica double barrel with external hammers and barrels about 38" long . It was a custom build for him . I almost forgot to mention , it's a " 10 gauge Magnum " . I didn't shoot it a lot , but I bought shells for it and I did shoot it . I still have it today . Regards, Paul

 

[HardToHandle]

The Rem 870 was introduced in 1950.
The AR-15 was introduced in 1957.
Those whipper snappers carrying the then new Mattel rifle are now collecting social security. So are most folks with an 870.

I own both. Both have a long history, are still in production and have elaborate, varied support chains. For me, they are not one-to-one comparison nor interchangeable.