The Antique “Smokeless Schofield”?

[BMur]

My research has been on a roll lately.
I just received these very early " Smokeless Brass Powder Scoops"!
They are the first "Pre-1900" Smokeless powder scoops I've ever seen! I suspect they are U.S. Military issue since they are for the low power Gallery load or "Short Range" load and full load for the 30 Government. Specifically, the 30-40 Krag. This would be part of a hand loading kit.

This also clearly proves "hand loading"… not bench loading but "hand loading" smokeless powder was occurring in 1898!

I've been trying to find proof for over 40 years! Exciting stuff for me.
This also strongly suggests late Schofield 45 Government revolvers may have been loaded with DuPont smokeless in the Spanish American War!

The photos of powder reference is from an 1898 Ideal manual that also clearly lists the 30 Government. That would be the 30-40 Krag at that specific time in history! Not the 1906 30-06. So the internet is definitely wrong as stating the 30-06 was first titled the 30 Gov. By Winchester in 1906! It was not the first to receive such a title.

It was actually Dupont in 1898. Identifying the 30 cal Gov. As the 30-40 Krag at that time. Possibly a little earlier.

These smokeless scoops ( Extremely Rare) opens the door to many possibilities!

So it's no longer a theory. It's now a fact. Hand loading Smokeless Dupont powder did take place in 1898 with early powder scoops. The scoops have always been the missing link.

It might actually be a few years earlier. I don't have Ideal manuals between the years 1895-1897. The 1894 manual does not list DuPont powder.

Murph

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

Very interesting!

I already knew that the 30-40 was pertaining to smokeless as opposed to black powder. Any idea what DuPont No.2 even looked like; I assume a flake powder a lot like Herco.

Do not forget the 30 Gov't. of 1903; very short lived!

Ivan

 

[BMur]

30-03

I agree Ivan,

The 30-03 would have been part of the smokeless hand loading era for the Military at least.

I have no idea what the original No. 1 and No.2 Dupont smokeless powders looked like. If anyone has some in their collection it would be awesome to see. They were quickly replaced as seen in later Ideal manuals post 1905.

These smokeless scoops really raise a lot of questions regarding possible Commercial Sales. You'll notice in the posted photos that the 32cal and 38 cal Smith & Wesson Revolvers are also clearly listed by DuPont as reloadable using their new Smokeless powder. They even list the powder charge recommended for each.

It would require the exact same type scoops that I posted having very explicit markings to instruct the reloader exactly what smokeless powder to use, what charge of powder, and for what caliber the scoop was engineered for.

If we think about it for a minute. By 1898 Smith & Wesson had already manufactured well over 1 million centerfire revolvers in 32 and 38 cal combined in SA & DA. The sales of these powder scoops should have been huge!

The real question to me is why aren't there more smokeless powder scoops out there? They should not be hard to find! It makes no sense unless we plug in the industry's " OUR FIREARMS ARE NOT DESIGNED OR WARRANTED FOR SMOKELESS USE. That was the common theme at this time in history. Then it becomes crystal clear.

This position does not eliminate the U.S. Military however where each member was trained to reload. So it is very possible that the Schofield 45 saw smokeless use towards the end of their time in the U.S. Military and in fact in the Spanish American War.

Murph

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

When I first started reloading, the older reloading manuals had charts of which empty cartridge to make a scoop out of for a specific charge of black powder. I'm sure the powder companies were circulating that information for their own smokeless powders.

I've seen many homemade scoops made as simply as a piece of bailing wire twisted around the rim of a fired case, then fine-tuned by dripping candle wax. I soldiered handles on empty cases for my own loading.


Ivan

 

[TripleLock]

The first Ideal Handbook in which DuPont's smokeless powders appeared was Handbook No.8, published in late 1896, with substantially the same loading data as shown in BMur's first post.

I do not have a sample of DuPont's No.2 Rifle Smokeless, but did turn up the attached image after a search of the internet. No.2 powder was described as blonde in color, and of irregularly shaped grains.

Jim

 

[Alk8944]

It was actually Dupont in 1898. Identifying the 30 cal Gov. As the 30-40 Krag at that time. Possibly a little earlier.

These smokeless scoops ( Extremely Rare) opens the door to many possibilities!

So it's no longer a theory. It's now a fact. Hand loading Smokeless Dupont powder did take place in 1898 with early powder scoops. The scoops have always been the missing link.

The 1894 manual does not list DuPont powder.

Murph

This is because at that time the company that manufactured the powders that would later become DuPont was Laflin and Rand.

 

[StrawHat]

Just prior to the Spanish American War, the Government was also developing a smokeless load for the Springfield Single Shot Rifle, aka Trapdoor. Development stopped because of the War.

Kevin

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

Concerning the Blond color: In about 1987, I was experimenting with a lighter load of IMR 3031 and a Hornady 45 Caliber sabot in 45-70. The light weight of the bullet and the slick nylon sabot allowed the bullet to slip down the barrel without combusting the powder! The unburnt powder was "Flash Baked". It had turned the blonde color illustrated in Triplelock's post.

Ivan

 

[glowe]

Very interesting!

I already knew that the 30-40 was pertaining to smokeless as opposed to black powder. . . Ivan

Ivan, I have only read that in 1890 when the load was still experimental, the 30-40 referred to .30 caliber and 40 grains of black powder. The 30-40 or 30 US Army cartridge was adopted in 1892, when the first smokeless powder existed and the load was 40 grains by volume smokeless to replace the first loading of BP. I do know that early smokeless and semi-smokeless loads were bulk powder were typically loaded by volume the same way as BP.

Let me add a quote from Pitman Notes book. It clearly shows the cartridge cross-section and one can see the powder filling the case. This section is in reference to the Model 1896 Krag.

 

[Model19man]

The Cuban war has a commonly told story that is associated with it. Roosevelt and other officers noted that the Spanish were using Mauser rifles that fired smokeless powder. Often these Spanish riflemen would see Americans firing their black powder weapons. This led to the Spanish firing at the clouds of smoke, which cost a lot of American lives.

 

[glowe]

The Cuban war has a commonly told story that is associated with it. Roosevelt and other officers noted that the Spanish were using Mauser rifles that fired smokeless powder. Often these Spanish riflemen would see Americans firing their black powder weapons. This led to the Spanish firing at the clouds of smoke, which cost a lot of American lives.

I believe that while most of the US Army carried Krags using smokeless ammunition, while the volunteer force was still using trap-door carbines at the time, chambered in 45-70 BP. What I also know is that there was still smoke produced by some of the early "smokeless" powders. Not sure about 30-40 Krag loads.

 

[BMur]

Early Smokeless powder

Well at least this discovery of very early Smokeless scoops by a very reputable company and smokeless powder manufacturer provides a rock solid position to the use of early smokeless in original black powder firearms when hand loading or reloading early cases.

Dupont went on to produce many variations of smokeless powder that is still being used today. I think the Military use of smokeless powder is based on very few types of firearms and calibers at that time. The general public had a huge number of firearms to choose from with no standards or guidelines in manufacture until the 1920's. Collectors would gobble up these early smokeless scoops so it will continue to be very difficult to find them.

I'd sure like to see one stamped 32 or 38 Smith & Wesson Revolver. That would be rock solid stuff!

This certainly proves it was done early on with manufactured scoops for hand loading and supports the position of likely Commercial sales. So I now believe they are out there.

Murph

 

[old tanker]

In late 1899 Frankford Arsenal changed the loading the .38 US service cartridge from black powder to smokeless. Doubtless soldiers in the Philippines shot whatever they were issued in whatever version of DA Colt .38 they had.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

The Cuban war has a commonly told story that is associated with it. Roosevelt and other officers noted that the Spanish were using Mauser rifles that fired smokeless powder. Often these Spanish riflemen would see Americans firing their black powder weapons. This led to the Spanish firing at the clouds of smoke, which cost a lot of American lives.

As late as D-Day WWII Paratroopers fighting in the hedgerows of Normandy complained that their Garand ammo had enough smoke to reveal their positions to the Germans.

Ivan

 

[TripleLock]

Two old Bullseye smokeless powder cans, with the back label calling out recommended charges for various cartridges. The first can is from DuPont, who had taken ownership of Laflin & Rand (where Bullseye originated) in 1902. Until 1909 DuPont continued to sell Laflin & Rand powders under the L&R name, leaving the packaging unchanged. In 1909 the Laflin & Rand name was allowed to pass into history, and DuPont packaged the old L&R powders under the DuPont name. Of course, in 1912 the U.S. government forced DuPont to break up its monopoly of gunpowder interests, and the manufacture of most of the surviving Laflin & Rand powders (which included Bullseye) was transferred to Hercules. The rest, as they say, is history.

The first two images are of a DuPont labled canister of Bullseye, produced between 1909 and 1912. The next two are from a Hercules canister from 1912 to 1914. Note that, along with all the usual suspects, there are two stand-out cartridges listed... the .44 Smith & Wesson American and the .45 Smith & Wesson! These two cartridges in particular are NOT known to have been loaded with smokeless by the factories, yet here are DuPont and Hercules basically saying to the handloading public, "Yes. It's perfectly safe, here ya go!"

By 1925, both the .44 S&W American and .45 S&W no longer appeared on Bullseye canisters, and I believe by that time both had also disappeared from the W.R.A.Co. and Remington-U.M.C. ammuniton catalogues. But, at least for a time, these cartridges were indeed reloaded with smokeless powder.

But please, I AM NOT IMPLYING EITHER DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY THAT THE LOADING DATA PROVIDED IS CORRECT OR SAFE. DO NOT USE THIS DATA FOR THE RELOADING OF ANY CARTRIDGES, FOR ANY FIREARMS. PROVIDED FOR HISTORIC INTEREST ONLY!!

Jim

 

[BMur]

Identical powder scoops

Well,
Now that we know what to look for I found a couple Identical scoops for Black powder that are attributed to Winchester. I'm not swallowing this assessment.

I believe these were manufactured by Dupont or a sub-contractor for DuPont since they sold black powder also.

So in my opinion Dupont should be our focus for finding more Smokeless powder scoops. It makes perfect sense that a powder company as large as DuPont would have sold powder scoops to go with a powder sale. No brainer.

I've been looking at early Winchester ads and the scoop's that came with their tools look totally different. Smaller Flat handles.

Murph

 

[Drm50]

1905 30/40Govt Frankfort Arsenal does smoke, but not like straight black.
But is smoke result of aging of cartridges? I've had smoke from early 303Sav & Rem 30-32 ect. I'm sure smokeless.

 

[TripleLock]

Well,
Now that we know what to look for I found a couple Identical scoops for Black powder that are attributed to Winchester. I'm not swallowing this assessment.

I believe these were manufactured by Dupont or a sub-contractor for DuPont since they sold black powder also.

So in my opinion Dupont should be our focus for finding more Smokeless powder scoops. It makes perfect sense that a powder company as large as DuPont would have sold powder scoops to go with a powder sale. No brainer.

I've been looking at early Winchester ads and the scoop's that came with their tools look totally different. Smaller Flat handles.

Murph

That style of handle... long and flat, with a twist midway... is what I have seen generally associated with either Laflin & Rand (1890s to 1909) or DuPont (1902 to 1912), with overlap from 1902-1909 when L&R was under DuPont control but still operated under the L&R name before being totally absorbed by DuPont in 1909.

Note that Laflin & Rand dippers will carry the L&R name on the bottom of the dipper itself.

Jim

 

[TripleLock]

1905 30/40Govt Frankfort Arsenal does smoke, but not like straight black.
But is smoke result of aging of cartridges? I've had smoke from early 303Sav & Rem 30-32 ect. I'm sure smokeless.

There is no such thing as a truly smokeless powder. They all produce smoke to one degree or another regardless of age, a simple and unavoidable byproduct of combustion.

Jim

 

[oink]

A great thread. Thanks guys.