The Armed Citizen - are we over thinking things?

[papajohn428]

Anyone who owns a firearm and doesn't play the "what if" game is likely asking for trouble. If you don't have a plan for what to do in a variety of situations, he will likely freeze when action is called for. I may overthink it, but I maintain that's far better than being a deer in the headlights of a lethal encounter.

I have always felt that one should carry/keep the weapon one shoots the best, in as large a caliber as possible. I have a lot of 45's, but carry a 38 at work because it's what they issue. I'd rather have more choice, but I attempt to make up for the weapon's potential deficiencies by practicing as often as possible, with practice ammo that duplicates my duty load.

With modern ammo, the 38 Special is as good as most, and easier to shoot well than many.

 

[celticfisherman]

I had to pull my carry weapon for the first time in February. THat one incident changed how I look at guns more than anything else. The best gun is the one you have with you and will have with you. I now ALWAYS have one. And almost won't go someplace where I can't.

THe next thing is the act of looking over a gun's sights at another human being. I'll never forget that. I didn't have to pull the trigger that night but I can guarantee I will never put myself in a situation like I did that night WILLINGLY again. Because my thought later that night was this "was my decision a good one? Could I have done anything different?" The answers were my decision to be where I was wasn't a necessity. So I almost had to shoot a man or men because of a whim.

That's what sticks with me. And ever since I just carry more because it's that one decision you make to grab a candy bar, to light a cigarette, to do anything like that that ends up creating your nightmare.

So it's simple for me. I buy what I will carry all the TIME!

 

[off road]

I had a guy at gunpoint once. Heard a noise in the garage. Was expecting it to be a critter of some kind (skunks, opossums, and racoons had a history of getting in there through the cat door). Threw a little J-frame in my pocket just in case, and went to investigate. (You want to be armed if you have to face a racoon!)

Opened the door (an outside door), flicked on the light, and there was a guy standing there with an arm full of tools. I draw the gun. I don't see a gun, but almost everything in a garage makes an excellent weapon....and he is wearing a rather long sheath knife. Things get weird....

He is high as a kite! Fidgets nervously, ignores every command that I give him, and just keeps walking toward me...headed for the door. Everybody knows that someone with a knife can cross a room and be on you in a second, so at this point I am backpeddling to keep my distance. He just keeps coming and I have to back out the door, or shoot him as he is getting way to close. But....I have the presence of mind to switch the light off, and I can hear him falling all over stuff in the dark (the only fun I had that night!) The confrontation moves outside, and I have to just let him run...or shoot him in the back.

What I did right: I had a gun! I didn't use it needlessly and get myself in all kinds of legal hassles, and have to wonder forever if he was actually ok guy, when he wasn't on drugs.

What went wrong: Being high, my having a gun was irrelevant to him! No way to take command of the situation without getting hand-to-hand physical, when you are dealing with a wacked out tweaker (something you need to remember as a potential jurror, when you see those videos of what looks like police brutality!). I didn't have a cell phone on me, so no way to call the police. I didn't wake my wife before I went out there, so she couldn't call the police for me. I switched on the light, when I should have had a 'tactical' light with me and used that to keep him blinded.

 

[old curmudgeon]

I sure wish you would tell that to the drugged up assailants around here. Many take on several hits and still injure or kill their victims. One guy nicknamed "Cuz" took three direct, rapid hits to the chest from a .357 mag at somewhere around 10 feet. He continued on to fatally stab the victim three times and then attack her husband before finally running out of the store. Happens often just with different calibers and people.

Sure, some people are stopped with one or two shots. As I have mentioned before, some die of their wounds when the wound was not fatal. But a drugged up idiot does not always feel the pain or understand he has been shot. I have seen several committ their bad deed and drive their self to the hospital. Once, back in the late 60's, I was standing next to a guy that was hit in the shoulder. He never knew it until he went inside and we noticed blood coming from his shoulder. Within minutes, he was in pain.

It is amazing to me how many times stories of this nature have been posted by those who have been there and yet these stories are completely ignored by those who insist that everything from a .22 to a 9 mm is "all the gun I need".

They either do not know or ignore the fact that breaking support bones is every bit as important and easier to accomplish with the proper weapon than it is to hit an organ that will give you a one shot stop.

 

[greybeard43]

It is amazing to me how many times stories of this nature have been posted by those who have been there and yet these stories are completely ignored by those who insist that everything from a .22 to a 9 mm is "all the gun I need".

They either do not know or ignore the fact that breaking support bones is every bit as important and easier to accomplish with the proper weapon than it is to hit an organ that will give you a one shot stop.

Naah you need a 600 nitro express. That will do it every time.

 

[hatt]

It is amazing to me how many times stories of this nature have been posted by those who have been there and yet these stories are completely ignored by those who insist that everything from a .22 to a 9 mm is "all the gun I need".

They either do not know or ignore the fact that breaking support bones is every bit as important and easier to accomplish with the proper weapon than it is to hit an organ that will give you a one shot stop.

Please explain more about this "breaking support bones."

 

[walnutred]

It is amazing to me how many times stories of this nature have been posted by those who have been there and yet these stories are completely ignored by those who insist that everything from a .22 to a 9 mm is "all the gun I need".

No doubt Bigger is Better but you just used a story where a 357 mag was not enough. The attacker absorbed 1650FtLbs of muzzle energy and still continued his attack. Unless we all start carrying a 12ga with slugs there is always a chance of not having enough gun.

 

[greybeard43]

I think everybody is getting off track on this. We are talking pistols here. Concealed carry pistols to be exact. Anemic at best. There is no guaranteed magic bullet. Have a gun is what the general consencus of opinion seems to support. The most powerful that you can "conveniently" carry. People tend to leave the larger/heavier guns at home. If it's at home you don't have a chance. No matter what you carry is better than nothing.

 

[hatt]

No doubt Bigger is Better but you just used a story where a 357 mag was not enough. The attacker absorbed 1650FtLbs of muzzle energy and still continued his attack. Unless we all start carrying a 12ga with slugs there is always a chance of not having enough gun.

100 lb deer can run off after a good hit with a .300 mag. You're never going to be able to carry something that will guarantee immediate success. At least not while weapons shoot copper and lead bullets out the end.

 

[Seneca]

" - are we overthinking things? "

What else is there to think about?

 

[230therapy]

I just finished reading "The Armed Citizen" in the most recent American Rifleman. It's one of my favorite parts of the magazine and today it got me thinking.

We spend a lot of time debating calibers, revolver or semi-auto, magazine capacity, etc, etc. However, time and again, the stories in The Armed Citizen involve a home or business owner firing one shot and the intruder dropping dead right there or making it as far as the yard before expiring. A lot of times they have nothing more than a .22 or .38 and they do the deed just fine.

My question is, are ALL of these people just incredibly lucky or are we over thinking all the choices we "enthusiasts" make in arming ourselves? Maybe most calibers and bullet choices are adequate beyond what we are willing to admit and maybe human attackers aren't all that difficult to stop after all. I'm not saying we shouldn't use all the gun we can handle and shouldn't carry the best ammunition available. Just suggesting maybe, for those not in law enforcement or the military, we are all better armed than previously thought for the average bad guy encounter.

Your thoughts are greatly appreciated.

Probably.

The most dangerous person in the United States is a little old lady armed with a revolver chambered in 22 Long Rifle, 32, or 38 Special. These rabid LoL's account for a large portion of the drug using population.

The LoL Factor: killing bad guys for over 100 years with revolvers that haven't been shot in 30 years!

 

[jkc]

There's been some thread drift ...

The Armed Citizen is routinely filled with accounts that begin with such phrases as, "Awakened by the sound of breaking glass...", "Alerted by his barking dog ...", "After being the victim of several burglaries in the last three months, so-and-so acquired a handgun ...", etc. These introductions are frequently followed by accounts of people who were armed with some sort of firearm, and who encountered or confronted burglars, robbers, rapists,etc., in their own residences, often in the night, where the resident has the advantage of knowledge of the "lay of the land", and may well be encountering the intruder in a "fatal funnel" such as a hallway, foyer, stairwell, etc.

The intruders in these instances are decidedly disadvantaged in terms of their orientation, and possibly in terms of their motivation/ambition. The tweaker who risks quite a lot by breaking into a possibly occupied home has not carefully thought through the cost/benefit calculations of his malfeasance. The homeowner, even a little old lady, doesn't have any calculation to make, and so has no reason to hesitate or overthink an appropriate response --- any intruder is fair game to be shot until no longer a threat. This is a rare example of when it's OK to shoot first and ask questions later.

Thus, it isn't terribly surprising that home intruders, not anticipating any serious resistance, and lacking any particular defensive strategy, are frequently shot and often killed with weapons those of us who regard ourselves among the cognoscenti of weapons and tactics would dismiss or disdain. There's nothing quite so heartening as to read about some feisty grandmother successfully fighting back!

 

[johnsonl]

I've always been a fan of keeping it simple. I recommend a .38 revolver for self defense. Having it when you need it is most important.

 

[27145]

I've always been a fan of keeping it simple. I recommend a .38 revolver for self defense. Having it when you need it is most important.

In our society today, we have to have the latest and greatest of things, be it cars, tv's and guns. Anything you have in working order will do the job, if not, then it is just your time to go.

 

[greybeard43]

In our society today, we have to have the latest and greatest of things, be it cars, tv's and guns. Anything you have in working order will do the job, if not, then it is just your time to go.

What you say about the latest and greatest is true. The studies that have been done about caliber effectiveness have been done what? 20, 30 or even 50 years ago. There have been tremendous advances in bullet and powder manufacture. CCI/Speer has a person defense round in .22 magnum optimized for short barrelled weapons. Hornady also has one in the same caliber. Could the manufacture of this ammunition be a way to tap into the amount of NAA mini revolvers beieng carried today by the CCW comnmunity? I would be willing to wager that in actual CCW use, the NAA mini probably is carried two to one over larger weapons. The advances in ammo also make the 9x17 (.380) a lot more viable than even 10 years ago. More BGs use 9x19 fmj than any other round. A 9mm hole is a 9mm hole regardless of the amount of powder propelling it using fmj rounds. I am not extolling the use of ""mouse guns"" but I think that maybe some modern studies could be done and maybe the Gurus can stop living in the past.

 

[Lightfoot4]

While I think bigger and more, is better, as long as I have something, I feel fine. I don't feel outgunned or vulnerable when I'm carrying my 5 shot 442, nor do I feel invincible when I'm carrying my 16 shot 5906. Both are fine for the job.

 

[oldman45]

While I think bigger and more, is better, as long as I have something, I feel fine. I don't feel outgunned or vulnerable when I'm carrying my 5 shot 442, nor do I feel invincible when I'm carrying my 16 shot 5906. Both are fine for the job.

A mouse gun is better than a rock for sure. However, I find the shock value that is experienced by those hit by large calibers is priceless.

Down south we shoot a lot. Last night I had to call an attorney about 9pm. He and his three lawyer sons were out in their backyard shooting various guns. Well after dark but they set up lights. Shooting often and using various calibers, we see things happen. I have shot beer cans with a .22 and not even turn the empty can over. The bullet just passes through the can very rapidly. A human torso is much like that. Hit with small calibers and the bullet can pass through without the person feeling the impact. Think about all the times media reports of someone driving themselves to a hospital after being shot. The impact from a 230 gr .45acp will assure a beer can or a man will feel it.

Use whatever your are comfortable with or own. Practice often and become proficient. Then hope you never have to fire in fear, anger or self defense. But as my wife says, Bigger is better. I will continue to depend on a .45acp. They hurt the target. Overthinking? Maybe but I have seen enough shootings that I want the odds to be in my favor.

 

[hatt]

I've shot cans with a 30.06 and some of them just stood there. If I had a .460 Weatherby I bet the same thing would happen on occasion. I don't think empty cans are any sort of indicator of bullet/caliber performance.

 

[Titan]

My experience is that for every article about a single kill shot, there are two or three about a wounded perp being apprehended later.

As for calibers....there are countless stories of 22LR kills, but the fact remains that larger calibers are superior at 'stopping threats' when precision placement doesn't, or can't occur.

 

[Glock 'em down]

A mouse gun is better than a rock for sure. However, I find the shock value that is experienced by those hit by large calibers is priceless.

I will continue to depend on a .45acp. They hurt the target. Overthinking? Maybe but I have seen enough shootings that I want the odds to be in my favor.

Yeah, a .45 may not kill a guy, but he damn sure won't wanna get up!

A deputy I work with shot a BG in the throat with a .45 out of a Colt Combat Commander at about 7-10 yards. He survived, went to court, got convicted, sentenced to 10 years, out on the streets today. His voice is a little more distorted than it used to be, but he's alive and well.

The deputy said when he shot him, he immediately hit the ground, moaning and groaning, cussing the deputy, but he NEVER made any attempt to get up off the ground and continue his attack.