RobertJ.
Member
Unless you enjoy it, in which case it's a hobby!
Do you spend time in front of the TV? How much is that worth?
THE DOLLARS AND "SENSE" OF RE-LOADING AMMUNITION
- Thread starter chief38
- Start date
Unless you enjoy it, in which case it's a hobby!
Do you spend time in front of the TV? How much is that worth?
JimBianchi
Member
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- Mar 1, 2017
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I've been reloading for about 3 years and have more than paid for my investment in equipment.
That being said, I can make 160grn 38SP bunny-fart loads that are incredibly accurate all day long, and then I shoot more than ever before. This type of round is nearly impossible to buy commercially in 38SP.
So I did pay for the equipment, I do shoot a lot more, and I'm a better shooter for it.
That being said, I can make 160grn 38SP bunny-fart loads that are incredibly accurate all day long, and then I shoot more than ever before. This type of round is nearly impossible to buy commercially in 38SP.
So I did pay for the equipment, I do shoot a lot more, and I'm a better shooter for it.
nachogrande
Member
HARD TO PUT A PRICE ON.
The pride of making your own for YOUR specific firearm & the peace of mind knowing you won't run out or go thru the hassle of running from store to store to be gouged & a limit imposed, NO THANKS. Now if I could just load rimfires I'd be set. Just today I told a clerk "you keep them", 15$ for 100 CCI short CB caps, the squirrels in my garden were happy.
The pride of making your own for YOUR specific firearm & the peace of mind knowing you won't run out or go thru the hassle of running from store to store to be gouged & a limit imposed, NO THANKS. Now if I could just load rimfires I'd be set. Just today I told a clerk "you keep them", 15$ for 100 CCI short CB caps, the squirrels in my garden were happy.
I simply like reloading because it gives me a sense of accomplishment and it's an activity I enjoy - I load one shell at a time with my Rockchucker and 505 scale. Don't know if it's cheaper because I've never done the math. Don't care...
Hey Chief38 the person in charge of my local range tells me the reason they have the posted rule about only taking your own brass is because in CA it is considered hazardous waste, he also said they sell some of it to commercial reloaders but they can't just sell it as scrap but can sell it as scrap that is hazardous waste. Don't know if this is bs but they are the only local outdoor range and if selling the used brass keeps them open that is ok with me.
With all this talk of $90 a box with labor factored in, I took some time to crunch a few of my own numbers....
38 Special Target Load:
Material costs
Case: free
Bullet: ? cents, home made lube, electric and propane for lead for lead recycling at home, free to minimal
Powder: 2.8 grains Bullseye, .9 cents per round
Primer: 3 cents per round
Material : 3.9-? cents per round
Total labor estimate:
4 Hours work for 80 pounds of clean ingots from scrap collected from my rubber traps and remelted, $1 per 5600 grains or $1.25 a pound at $25 an hour
5600 grains / 170 grain Keith = 33 bullets per dollar, basically 3 cents per bullet
3.5 hours of casting, including setup, warm up, clean up, sorting average 1,300 bullets or 372 high grade bullets per hour, 6.7 cents per bullet at $25 an hour
One hour to size and lubricate 600 bullets, 4.1 cents per bullet
150 rounds loaded per hour in careful fashion, 16.6 cents per total loaded round
Total theoretical labor cost per total loaded round 30.4 cents
Total material plus theoretical labor 34.3 cents per round
50 round box at material cost is around $2
50 round box at material cost plus theoretical labor $17.15
If I was still on the old single stage that i still love, that would drive up the theoretical labor cost higher, and whatever wage you want to calculate will change it too, but even with $50 an hour and a 50 rounds per hour on a single stage would still be hard to come out at over $50 a box. Keep in mind some young shooters make closer to 12.50 an hour in their real jobs, and some progressive reloaders will easily outpace my careful pace. Many people take more time and make far more per hour than I, but I think a general idea of what labor included can be, at least, ballparked.
As with subjectivity, I'm sure if you are a heat surgeon and you moonlight at a gas station, your story about how much you make as a doctor will lead to the gas station awarding you a wage based on your skilled labor salary and not on the wage that is at the level of the job and what the employer can afford to pay. This line of logic can distort our perception of value and trying to put monetary value to our productive time we use to be productive to ourselves, when in truth all the numbers are kinda just made up.
As for me, I try to mandate myself to firing at least 2,600 rounds out o my M27 every year, so $104 of actual monetary cost to me is a fine, and very real, number, and I'll stick with that.
38 Special Target Load:
Material costs
Case: free
Bullet: ? cents, home made lube, electric and propane for lead for lead recycling at home, free to minimal
Powder: 2.8 grains Bullseye, .9 cents per round
Primer: 3 cents per round
Material : 3.9-? cents per round
Total labor estimate:
4 Hours work for 80 pounds of clean ingots from scrap collected from my rubber traps and remelted, $1 per 5600 grains or $1.25 a pound at $25 an hour
5600 grains / 170 grain Keith = 33 bullets per dollar, basically 3 cents per bullet
3.5 hours of casting, including setup, warm up, clean up, sorting average 1,300 bullets or 372 high grade bullets per hour, 6.7 cents per bullet at $25 an hour
One hour to size and lubricate 600 bullets, 4.1 cents per bullet
150 rounds loaded per hour in careful fashion, 16.6 cents per total loaded round
Total theoretical labor cost per total loaded round 30.4 cents
Total material plus theoretical labor 34.3 cents per round
50 round box at material cost is around $2
50 round box at material cost plus theoretical labor $17.15
If I was still on the old single stage that i still love, that would drive up the theoretical labor cost higher, and whatever wage you want to calculate will change it too, but even with $50 an hour and a 50 rounds per hour on a single stage would still be hard to come out at over $50 a box. Keep in mind some young shooters make closer to 12.50 an hour in their real jobs, and some progressive reloaders will easily outpace my careful pace. Many people take more time and make far more per hour than I, but I think a general idea of what labor included can be, at least, ballparked.
As with subjectivity, I'm sure if you are a heat surgeon and you moonlight at a gas station, your story about how much you make as a doctor will lead to the gas station awarding you a wage based on your skilled labor salary and not on the wage that is at the level of the job and what the employer can afford to pay. This line of logic can distort our perception of value and trying to put monetary value to our productive time we use to be productive to ourselves, when in truth all the numbers are kinda just made up.
As for me, I try to mandate myself to firing at least 2,600 rounds out o my M27 every year, so $104 of actual monetary cost to me is a fine, and very real, number, and I'll stick with that.
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sorry, thank you, yes, nickel brass, brain fart
smokindog
Member
Nice piece!
Only thing I'll add is piece of mind. Supply is always one election away from disruption. I don't shoot near as much as most of you and I don't do competitions, I just enjoy plinking.
The last dry spell got me into reloading (Sandy Hook) and I've probably got enough supplies to last me the remainder of my shooting days (61 in a couple weeks). Yes, that means I bought some primers at 4+ cents but the powder I bought will never be cheaper and everything is stored properly.
I also bought a significant amount of factory ammo to use with new firearms, feed the brass supply, and keep on the shelf. If I'm out and about and see a good deal, I still will buy some.
I spent more than the $1500 mentioned for equipment BUT the $1500 budget is a great number IMO.
The point is I now HAVE IT and no election will change that. Also, since we're newly retired, it's a cost I don't have to worry about in the budget. Health care is already costing me a new firearm per month (come on 65)!
I enjoy going up to my reloading room and disappearing from the world for a few hours! THAT alone is worth the entry fee.
Only thing I'll add is piece of mind. Supply is always one election away from disruption. I don't shoot near as much as most of you and I don't do competitions, I just enjoy plinking.
The last dry spell got me into reloading (Sandy Hook) and I've probably got enough supplies to last me the remainder of my shooting days (61 in a couple weeks). Yes, that means I bought some primers at 4+ cents but the powder I bought will never be cheaper and everything is stored properly.
I also bought a significant amount of factory ammo to use with new firearms, feed the brass supply, and keep on the shelf. If I'm out and about and see a good deal, I still will buy some.
I spent more than the $1500 mentioned for equipment BUT the $1500 budget is a great number IMO.
The point is I now HAVE IT and no election will change that. Also, since we're newly retired, it's a cost I don't have to worry about in the budget. Health care is already costing me a new firearm per month (come on 65)!
I enjoy going up to my reloading room and disappearing from the world for a few hours! THAT alone is worth the entry fee.
This is not the first time I have discussed this subject but since it does seem to come up from time to time I figured I'd post this again. The costs below are from what I have personally purchased in the recent past.
Let's say one is going to buy a Reloading Outfit to load .38 Special, .45 acp and .45 Colt. I am NOT including the cost of the Brass because IMHO there is no reason to buy it! Almost any Range is laden with once fired Brass in these popular calibers and it is there for the taking. My Club Ranges are so heavily littered with perfectly serviceable Brass I always tell new guys getting into reloading NOT to buy the cases. I would have a hard time believing your local Ranges are any different. I have given out thousands and thousands of Brass to new Re-loaders just to get them started. OK - so let's say the Brass is free.
Bullet heads for target shooting that I use are lead. I pay 0.089 cents for a 230 grain .45 acp bullet, 0.065 cents for a 158 grain RNL bullet and 0.100 cents for a .45 Colt 255 RNFP bullet all from Dardas Cast Bullets which I think are very good quality.
I use Titegroup for .38 Spl and .357 Mag, W231 for .45 acp and Unique for .45 Colt. Since all of those powders all cost about $20 / lb (I buy 8 pound cans).
Primers are selling for about $28 - $30 bucks per 1000 so that comes to about 0.030 each.
OK - now the math......
.38 special
cartridge Case.......... FREE
Bullet ..................... 6.5 cents
Powder.................... 1.0 cent
Primer..................... 3.0 cents
TOTAL..................... 10.5 cents / rnd x 50 = $5.50 /box of 50
.45 acp
Cartridge Case........... FREE
Bullet........................ 9 cents
Powder...................... 1.3 cents
Primer....................... 3.0 cents
TOTAL....................... 13.3 cents / rnd x 50 = $6.65/box of 50
.45 Colt
Cartridge Case .......... FREE
Bullet....................... 10 cents
Powder..................... 2.3 cents
Primer...................... 3 cents
TOTAL....................... 15.3 cents each x 50 = $7.65/box of 50
There are 7000 grains of powder in a pound so you can divide how many grains of powder you are using into 7000 and come up with cost per round based on your price per pound.
A GOOD reloading outfit can certainly be purchased for $1500.00 or so. If you save $15 per box over name brand Factory ammo (average of course - some more some less) and you take the $1500 equipment cost and divide it by the savings per box ( 1500 / 15 = 100 boxes of ammo) you will break even and pay for all your equipment after 100 boxes or 5,000 rounds.
While I don't know how long it would take you guys to shoot 5,000 rounds I know I go through that in about 6 months. So that is my perspective on just how fast reloading equipment and components will pay for themselves. Slightly longer if you buy super premium equipment and slightly less if you buy budget stuff. I suppose it also depends on what bullets you shoot but for Target shooting I have no problem using lead cast bullets.
OTHER THAN DOLLARS AND CENTS NOW:
Many guys like myself are serious target shooters and like shooting very accurate and slightly lighter recoiling bullets. I load my target ammo to respectable velocities but not up to defensive ammo velocities. So you can custom tune your own loads to your personal needs.
Many guys find reloading relaxing and enjoyable (I am not really one of them and usually load in bulk - then cover the press again). That's a personal opinion of course.
Once components are procured you never loose the ability to roll your own no matter what the political climate is. Since components last virtually forever if stored properly, you can but in bulk when one of the larger suppliers runs a sale and offers free shipping and NO Haz-Mat fees.
So there is my take on re-loading for those of you who are thinking about taking the plunge!
Regards,
Chief38
When the subject comes up where an individual asks the question re: "how much money does it cost to buy reloading stuff?" I always answer that on a basic level a minimum of $500.00 is needed. Less is possible and more is certainly easy to accomplish. But when it's all said and done when the handloader who produces more than 50 rounds per year looks at what he has sitting on his bench (including the actual bench), $1500.00 is probably a better, more accurate number.
I don't know why it is that we (established handloaders) try so hard to justify our hobby to those interested in taking it up, or why we low ball the reality of the true cost of joining the ranks of handloaderdom. Since this is a handgun forum it can be assumed that the potential new handloader will need or want to crank out 100s if not 1000s of rounds per month and unless you have unlimited time and enjoy sitting/standing at a bench for umteen hours per week, then the only other option is to place a progressive press on your bench.
This is going to cost some bux and I think a newb is better served knowing this up front before they hit the buy button for a single stage turret press that they will grow out of in a few months. This is not intended to be an insult to those who have ample amounts of pistol ammo produced on a turret press. But most of us who have a spouse and kids and a full time job and a mortgage do not have the time and energy required to go that route. It is an option for cost considerations but not in my opinion the best option.
As far as per round costs go even in 9mm where factory is relatively inexpensive it is easy to handload ammo for almost half the cost of factory even if you are not casting your own bullets. If someone shoots 1000 rounds of 9mm per month, it will take only 12.5 months for him to break even on a $1500.00 bench investment. And he will have better ammo for all his trouble. And that's 9mm. 38 or 45ACP will enjoy a faster return on investment.
So personally I think that instead of encouraging potential handloaders into buying this or that kit for a couple hundred dollars I think we do the community a better service by pointing out the reality of the thing, handloading, like just about anything related to firearms, is not inexpensive.
If your struggling to put food on the table and paying the electric bill then high volume recreational shooting is probably not in your best interests and you might be better served plinking 100 rounds worth per year on what ever firearm you currently have. I know that for years, literally, I put off handloading and shooting more than once or twice a year because our financial priorities were elsewhere.
Now that the kids are adults we have the time and money but still I couldn't shoot the volume I do now using factory ammo. The negative in my particular case is that my kids are used to Dad providing unlimited ammo and I cannot get my son interested in ammo self-sufficiency.
This is a very good thread with lots of good insights.
I don't know why it is that we (established handloaders) try so hard to justify our hobby to those interested in taking it up, or why we low ball the reality of the true cost of joining the ranks of handloaderdom. Since this is a handgun forum it can be assumed that the potential new handloader will need or want to crank out 100s if not 1000s of rounds per month and unless you have unlimited time and enjoy sitting/standing at a bench for umteen hours per week, then the only other option is to place a progressive press on your bench.
This is going to cost some bux and I think a newb is better served knowing this up front before they hit the buy button for a single stage turret press that they will grow out of in a few months. This is not intended to be an insult to those who have ample amounts of pistol ammo produced on a turret press. But most of us who have a spouse and kids and a full time job and a mortgage do not have the time and energy required to go that route. It is an option for cost considerations but not in my opinion the best option.
As far as per round costs go even in 9mm where factory is relatively inexpensive it is easy to handload ammo for almost half the cost of factory even if you are not casting your own bullets. If someone shoots 1000 rounds of 9mm per month, it will take only 12.5 months for him to break even on a $1500.00 bench investment. And he will have better ammo for all his trouble. And that's 9mm. 38 or 45ACP will enjoy a faster return on investment.
So personally I think that instead of encouraging potential handloaders into buying this or that kit for a couple hundred dollars I think we do the community a better service by pointing out the reality of the thing, handloading, like just about anything related to firearms, is not inexpensive.
If your struggling to put food on the table and paying the electric bill then high volume recreational shooting is probably not in your best interests and you might be better served plinking 100 rounds worth per year on what ever firearm you currently have. I know that for years, literally, I put off handloading and shooting more than once or twice a year because our financial priorities were elsewhere.
Now that the kids are adults we have the time and money but still I couldn't shoot the volume I do now using factory ammo. The negative in my particular case is that my kids are used to Dad providing unlimited ammo and I cannot get my son interested in ammo self-sufficiency.
This is a very good thread with lots of good insights.
292
Member
Great write up. Great thread. I reload with a Lee breech lock press. I also cast using wheel weights, free from the auto shop I do business with. The cost savings gets recycled into more guns and more shooting. As for the labor cost I'd ALMOST rather pay more to get to do something myself. The fun for me is working up accurate loads using different combinations of components.
OP
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2006
- Messages
- 19,611
- Reaction score
- 31,094
California's Rules and laws are way different than almost every other State and since I do not live there I am not that familiar with them. That said, I know many PUBLIC Ranges frown upon and some down right forbid guys from taking any Brass with the exception of their own. The main reason for this (in my opinion) is because they collect and sell that Brass for a profit.
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Alk8944
US Veteran
And how did you arrive at a value of your time? If you are at home, at night or over the weekend, what would you be doing if you were not watching TV, reading, going shooting, re-loading or other "Leisure time activity"? Face it, you wouldn't be doing anything to make money! This is the most specious of all arguments against hand-loading that there is! It only has value if the only choices are making money or re-loading and we all, including you, know this is not true.
Fine, if you consider re-loading as drudgery, and you can afford it, buy all the ammunition you want. Saving money is not the only reason for any leisure activity.
If you hunt strictly for the meat then this is a reasonable argument, or fish strictly for the fish you catch. How much an hour do you make while golfing, bowling, watching TV, etc?
Qc Pistolero
Member
One of my friend sold all his guns and reloading equipment 6 or 7 years ago.The bug bit back and he started shooting again;decided to wait to buy reloading equipment.He then bought a beautiful Winchester 1886 replica in 45-70.He showed up at the range with his gun and a few boxes of 45-70;at over a buck a pop,he concluded that he'll save his brass and start reloading ASAP!
To add insult,I gave him a box of my cast bullet reloads...and they outgroupped his expensive commercial jacketed bullets.Spoke to him yesterday and he is now up to decide which Dillon press he'll buy.Great!Another one into our gang!
Qc
To add insult,I gave him a box of my cast bullet reloads...and they outgroupped his expensive commercial jacketed bullets.Spoke to him yesterday and he is now up to decide which Dillon press he'll buy.Great!Another one into our gang!
Qc
VNK971
US Veteran
Back in the 70s when I was a police officer I could buy practice reloads quite inexpensively. I tried reloading, but never really got in to it. Now I'm retired and got back into shooting a couple of years ago. I shoot 38 spec mainly, with some 9mm and even less 45 ACP. I have the time to reload the types of target loads for my 38s that I want, and I probably couldn't find them commercially. I try to go to the range at least once a week. I don't care about the cost and I enjoy reloading. I consider it just as much a part of the hobby as going to the range to shoot. I let people know I reload and will help them if asked, but I don't encourage, or discourage, anyone.
Back when I was a newly married seminary student, I got my hands on a S&W 19-2. Not to long later ... I got a RCBS Reloader Special and started cranking out .38 Special ammo! I was in heaven! I could shoot my revolver at a price I could afford! Now it is over 30 years later. I reload because the cost savings are significant. I reload because I can load the ammo I want to shoot and not just shoot the ammo a local store or online source wants to stock and sell. I can shoot various loads that simply are not available at any price from any source. For me that's the dollars and sense of the whole matter. Sincerely. bruce.
Fishslayer
US Veteran, Absent Comrade
Every single time this topic comes up the issue of time and the value of ones time or labor comes up. Everyone who argues that reloading saves them money never account for the "cost" or value of their time. They always call it a hobby and therefore there is no $$$$ value to their time. The TV analogy also always makes an appearance.
The problem is that the cost comparison offered by the "save $$$" camp is a false comparison. You are comparing the cost of a factory made bullet which certainly has the cost of labor built into it to a reloaded round with no accounting for labor. It is not an apples to apples comparison. Those who call it a hobby have very right to do so but you cannot compare the "the true cost" of reloading without some cost for labor because what you are comparing it to certainly had to take labor into account when pricing it.
I am not saying not to reload but as a purely economic argument this is a false narrative. It is a poor argument that only stands because you have taken out a huge chuck of the cost to manufacture the ammo out of the equation. Calling your labor or time worthless does not validate the comparison. I really wish people would stop doing it. I reload some ammo but I get ZERO joy from it. What I do get is better more consistent ammo that shoots well in my guns. It don't put a $$ figure on my labor but I do pretend it is free. I also will tell everyone who asks me do I save money reloading that yes but only if I do not put a value my time. For me reloading is work and I do not work for free.
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Mehutch
Member
Reloading... its fun, its therapeutic, its cheaper, and it is good for Global Warming problem. Reload - shoot - eat your sandwich... repeat.
This is not the first time I have discussed this subject but since it does seem to come up from time to time I figured I'd post this again. The costs below are from what I have personally purchased in the recent past.
Let's say one is going to buy a Reloading Outfit to load .38 Special, .45 acp and .45 Colt. I am NOT including the cost of the Brass because IMHO there is no reason to buy it! Almost any Range is laden with once fired Brass in these popular calibers and it is there for the taking. My Club Ranges are so heavily littered with perfectly serviceable Brass I always tell new guys getting into reloading NOT to buy the cases. I would have a hard time believing your local Ranges are any different. I have given out thousands and thousands of Brass to new Re-loaders just to get them started. OK - so let's say the Brass is free.
Bullet heads for target shooting that I use are lead. I pay 0.089 cents for a 230 grain .45 acp bullet, 0.065 cents for a 158 grain RNL bullet and 0.100 cents for a .45 Colt 255 RNFP bullet all from Dardas Cast Bullets which I think are very good quality.
I use Titegroup for .38 Spl and .357 Mag, W231 for .45 acp and Unique for .45 Colt. Since all of those powders all cost about $20 / lb (I buy 8 pound cans).
Primers are selling for about $28 - $30 bucks per 1000 so that comes to about 0.030 each.
OK - now the math......
.38 special
cartridge Case.......... FREE
Bullet ..................... 6.5 cents
Powder.................... 1.0 cent
Primer..................... 3.0 cents
TOTAL..................... 10.5 cents / rnd x 50 = $5.50 /box of 50
.45 acp
Cartridge Case........... FREE
Bullet........................ 9 cents
Powder...................... 1.3 cents
Primer....................... 3.0 cents
TOTAL....................... 13.3 cents / rnd x 50 = $6.65/box of 50
.45 Colt
Cartridge Case .......... FREE
Bullet....................... 10 cents
Powder..................... 2.3 cents
Primer...................... 3 cents
TOTAL....................... 15.3 cents each x 50 = $7.65/box of 50
There are 7000 grains of powder in a pound so you can divide how many grains of powder you are using into 7000 and come up with cost per round based on your price per pound.
A GOOD reloading outfit can certainly be purchased for $1500.00 or so. If you save $15 per box over name brand Factory ammo (average of course - some more some less) and you take the $1500 equipment cost and divide it by the savings per box ( 1500 / 15 = 100 boxes of ammo) you will break even and pay for all your equipment after 100 boxes or 5,000 rounds.
While I don't know how long it would take you guys to shoot 5,000 rounds I know I go through that in about 6 months. So that is my perspective on just how fast reloading equipment and components will pay for themselves. Slightly longer if you buy super premium equipment and slightly less if you buy budget stuff. I suppose it also depends on what bullets you shoot but for Target shooting I have no problem using lead cast bullets.
OTHER THAN DOLLARS AND CENTS NOW:
Many guys like myself are serious target shooters and like shooting very accurate and slightly lighter recoiling bullets. I load my target ammo to respectable velocities but not up to defensive ammo velocities. So you can custom tune your own loads to your personal needs.
Many guys find reloading relaxing and enjoyable (I am not really one of them and usually load in bulk - then cover the press again). That's a personal opinion of course.
Once components are procured you never loose the ability to roll your own no matter what the political climate is. Since components last virtually forever if stored properly, you can but in bulk when one of the larger suppliers runs a sale and offers free shipping and NO Haz-Mat fees.
So there is my take on re-loading for those of you who are thinking about taking the plunge!
Regards,
Chief38
You are greatly over estimating the cost of factory ammo. I can find quality 45 ACP factory fresh not reloaded for well under $20.50 a box which is what it would have to cost if I am saving $15 a box and it costs me $5.50 to make.
1000 round case - 45 Auto 230 grain FMJ Sellier Bellot Brass Case Ammo - SB45A | SGAmmo.com
$.258 a piece = 12.90 a box delivered for 45 ACP and that took 10 seconds to find.
38 special costs about $.277 a piece shipped so $13.85 a box.
Prvi Partizan - 38 Special, 500 Rds, 158 Grain LRN Ammunition | SGAmmo
Numbers are closer on the 45 Colt.
I will also say that you can reduce the cost of your reloading components but I think my point still stands. Your factory ammo prices are not accurate which skews all your numbers to suit your initial premise. Again not saying to not reload ammo I reload 2 of the 3 calibers you site but if you want to make a complelling argument you need to have accurate info and pricing.
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