Great review chief38. Thank you. You make a compelling argument.
THE MOST IMPORTANT REVELATION I'VE MADE RECENTLY IN CCW
- Thread starter chief38
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Outstanding write up and I completely agree with your reasoning.
For many years, I carried some form of 5 shot snubbie for backup when on duty at my PD job and off duty. I started out with small autos but moved to the snubbie because I just enjoyed shooting them and, at the time (mid to late '90's), they were smaller and hid better than a lot of the small 9mm autos available at the time. Started when I was poor and broke with a stainless Taurus M85 that I bought used from another Officer. Carried it for a few years without any problems, then sold it to another poor, broke Officer who carried it for quite a while. Moved on to a S&W M649, the first .357 model without the lock. Again, carried it for quite a few years. Then moved on to a Ruger SP101 because the factory rubber/wood grips fit my hand much better than the S&W. I loved my snubbies and had no problem with only having 5 rds, considering that the only time I would be using it was defensively and that I wouldn't have to use them offensively. I was pretty good at reloads and was able to reload with an HKS speedloader faster than most of the guys at my PD reloading an auto.
Quite a few years ago, budget cuts at the PD mandated that we went to only one guy per shift. If you lived in town and were in town, you were expected to be available to go backup the on duty Officer if needed. That was the time that I realized that "running towards the sound of the guns" with a 5 shot snubbie may not be the best option. I reluctantly retired my snubbies from active use and moved on to small autos. I reclaimed my Glock 26 from my wife but it always felt like carrying a brick. When S&W introduced the Shield, I bought the first 9mm example I could find and still carry it. While the Shield isn't quite as good as a full sized gun, I shoot it very well and the 7 rd mag is, IMO, sufficient. When you consider that, for many years, the 1911 was considered my many to be the ultimate carry gun, the Shield has exactly the same capacity. I'm happy with it and have no problem using it for LE use. In fact, I have backed up the on duty Officer quite a few times with just my Shield and had no problems doing so.
The P365 intrigues me. I love the idea, but I HATE Sig as a company with the burning passion of 1000 suns based on a problem I had with a West German P226 I had when I first started in LE and Sig's complete, utter, total disregard and disdain for me when I called them about it. I wish another company had come out with the P365 because I desperately want to try one, but I refuse to even consider buying another Sig. I'm perfectly happy with my Shield for now. If another company comes out with something similar and as compact, I may try it, but Sig is off the table for me.
For many years, I carried some form of 5 shot snubbie for backup when on duty at my PD job and off duty. I started out with small autos but moved to the snubbie because I just enjoyed shooting them and, at the time (mid to late '90's), they were smaller and hid better than a lot of the small 9mm autos available at the time. Started when I was poor and broke with a stainless Taurus M85 that I bought used from another Officer. Carried it for a few years without any problems, then sold it to another poor, broke Officer who carried it for quite a while. Moved on to a S&W M649, the first .357 model without the lock. Again, carried it for quite a few years. Then moved on to a Ruger SP101 because the factory rubber/wood grips fit my hand much better than the S&W. I loved my snubbies and had no problem with only having 5 rds, considering that the only time I would be using it was defensively and that I wouldn't have to use them offensively. I was pretty good at reloads and was able to reload with an HKS speedloader faster than most of the guys at my PD reloading an auto.
Quite a few years ago, budget cuts at the PD mandated that we went to only one guy per shift. If you lived in town and were in town, you were expected to be available to go backup the on duty Officer if needed. That was the time that I realized that "running towards the sound of the guns" with a 5 shot snubbie may not be the best option. I reluctantly retired my snubbies from active use and moved on to small autos. I reclaimed my Glock 26 from my wife but it always felt like carrying a brick. When S&W introduced the Shield, I bought the first 9mm example I could find and still carry it. While the Shield isn't quite as good as a full sized gun, I shoot it very well and the 7 rd mag is, IMO, sufficient. When you consider that, for many years, the 1911 was considered my many to be the ultimate carry gun, the Shield has exactly the same capacity. I'm happy with it and have no problem using it for LE use. In fact, I have backed up the on duty Officer quite a few times with just my Shield and had no problems doing so.
The P365 intrigues me. I love the idea, but I HATE Sig as a company with the burning passion of 1000 suns based on a problem I had with a West German P226 I had when I first started in LE and Sig's complete, utter, total disregard and disdain for me when I called them about it. I wish another company had come out with the P365 because I desperately want to try one, but I refuse to even consider buying another Sig. I'm perfectly happy with my Shield for now. If another company comes out with something similar and as compact, I may try it, but Sig is off the table for me.
OP
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bub075,
I can understand not buying a product from a Company that you got burnt from in the past - been there, done that! The P365 is my first and only Sig and so far no problems so I don't know how they are when it comes to customer service and or repairs (hope I never have to find out either). I have only spoken to them on the phone to get a few questions answered and they were very accommodating to me but that is my only experience with them.
I'd bet that Glock, S&W, Kimber, etc. have been burning the midnight oil and I'm sure there will be competitors to the Sig P365 not too far in the future. Competition is good for us!
I can understand not buying a product from a Company that you got burnt from in the past - been there, done that! The P365 is my first and only Sig and so far no problems so I don't know how they are when it comes to customer service and or repairs (hope I never have to find out either). I have only spoken to them on the phone to get a few questions answered and they were very accommodating to me but that is my only experience with them.
I'd bet that Glock, S&W, Kimber, etc. have been burning the midnight oil and I'm sure there will be competitors to the Sig P365 not too far in the future. Competition is good for us!
I like steel guns.....
...but polymer is practical. I'm just not going to sit in the bathroom for hours admiring a polymer gun.
...but polymer is practical. I'm just not going to sit in the bathroom for hours admiring a polymer gun.
Kframerbluvr
Member
Since I am still active LE, an airweight J frame is strictly a second gun unless my back is acting up. Then it becomes a primary gun pocket carried.
One of the new thin Glock 48s is very tempting for bad back carry. I handled one yesterday at the local cop shop and was impressed. The issue Glock 23 sometimes is too much when my back is complaining. The thought of possibly running (or hobbling) to the sound of gunfire with only a five shot snub gives me the willies.
One of the new thin Glock 48s is very tempting for bad back carry. I handled one yesterday at the local cop shop and was impressed. The issue Glock 23 sometimes is too much when my back is complaining. The thought of possibly running (or hobbling) to the sound of gunfire with only a five shot snub gives me the willies.
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rock n roll kid
Member
times, guns change
carried a 38 s&w for over 20 years . went to a glock 43 bout 3 years ago & never looked back. a couple of rounds for the 43 is better plus it is much easier to hit with than thee 38 for me . totally reliable in typical glock fashion . picked up a new 365 2 weeks ago . it shoots fine & my first range session i mixed fmc , hp's , + p & even +p+ in the 8 mags i shot thru it and it ate them all without a bobble . am taking it to an indoor range for more shooting this week-end.
don't get me wrong , the snub has its place for a carry gun . but is is becoming clear in today's world a higher amount of ammo sure isn't a wasted idea . in some ways the snubs time has come & went. it would be good for a back up for your edc gun , but who would ever choose a 5 or 6 shooter over one of the newer auto offerings ? the g43x model is now on the horizon with a 10 shot capacity , but a slighter larger frame dimension over the 43 . lots of good choices abound !
i own a few s&w guns , but the time for change has set a good many of us to re-thinking our choices...... and for very good reasons !
carried a 38 s&w for over 20 years . went to a glock 43 bout 3 years ago & never looked back. a couple of rounds for the 43 is better plus it is much easier to hit with than thee 38 for me . totally reliable in typical glock fashion . picked up a new 365 2 weeks ago . it shoots fine & my first range session i mixed fmc , hp's , + p & even +p+ in the 8 mags i shot thru it and it ate them all without a bobble . am taking it to an indoor range for more shooting this week-end.
don't get me wrong , the snub has its place for a carry gun . but is is becoming clear in today's world a higher amount of ammo sure isn't a wasted idea . in some ways the snubs time has come & went. it would be good for a back up for your edc gun , but who would ever choose a 5 or 6 shooter over one of the newer auto offerings ? the g43x model is now on the horizon with a 10 shot capacity , but a slighter larger frame dimension over the 43 . lots of good choices abound !
i own a few s&w guns , but the time for change has set a good many of us to re-thinking our choices...... and for very good reasons !
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Chief38, the troubles I had with Sig were with SigArms back in the early 1990's. Sig today is pretty much a totally different company, so I am slowly coming around to rethink my burning hatred of Sig. I am in charge of firearms training and policy at my PD and, up till now, we have never allowed SAO autos. The PD had a Sig P238 forfeited from a court case a few years ago and, let me till you, I REALLY like it. Seemingly too accurate for such a small gun, seemingly reliable and fits me pretty well. I could get away with rewriting policy to allow SAOs for off duty use and I have been sorely tempted a few times to get a P238 for occasional off duty pocket carry when i need a really low profile gun. So I've been conflicted about Sig for some time now. If the P365 continues to be trouble free in reviews, I may take the plunge and try one out. Won't be any time soon, though. My beautiful wife doesn't have much trouble with my gun hobby, but we don't have a ton of money to buy guns with. I bought an M&P 2.0 last year for a duty gun and am planning on building an AR pistol in a few months to use on duty, so a P365 isn't in my future right now. I keep checking reviews, though, especially long term reviews.
As for other companies bringing out a copy, I doubt it anytime soon. If I remember correctly, Sig patented something about the magazine and how they were able to fit so many rounds in so small a package. Unless one of the other companies is able to come up with a workaround, Sig is likely to be it, at least until the patent expires (20 years, I think?)
I still stick w/my 340PD mostly b/c I've not been able to find anything lighter in 9MM, and saving weight is important for my situation. I've been down the .380 road and currently have an older LCP that's been 100% reliable, but being a lefty the mag pops out now and then when pocket carried in almost any holster.
In some ways, chief38, I feel you've drawn me into the dark side.
I grabbed my lgs's "only allocated" P365 in brown today (it's the only semi-auto I own). It came with an extended magazine and two standard ones. It's in my pocket, and I barely know it's there. I'll give myself a few days to get used to pocket carrying it, then I'll load it and have a go at the range to learn how it and I perform together.
More to follow....
Thank you.
My last gun purchase was a 3" nickel 36. Mostly to fondle, not to carry. I'm fortunate to have several carry options. One of my buddies and I rented a P365 and put 500 rounds through it. We both liked the gun. We both have 9mm Shields that we frequently carry. I guess we both came up with the thought that while the P365 was nice, we weren't popping for one. Yet......
oneounceload
Member
I have carried (pocket) a Kahr CM9, a 642, LCP. I now own 2 365s and with the 12 round mag, they fit my hand perfectly. I still use the LCP when wearing basketball type shorts where the "belt" is a drawstring, otherwise, it's the SIGs
P365
Been about 6 weeks in a Tommy Thies IWB and I can't find one thing I don't like about the P365.
In south florida I only wear thin t shirts and it's very easy to conceal which is very important to me, not to mention what has allready been stated in this thread.
They have a winner with this gun.
I have a couple snubs I can and sometimes carry but not lately.
I agree with the OP some good points made.
I suspect my brother will replace his G26 as soon as he tries my 365.
Now they have a 15 round mag available for the 365.
Regards
Been about 6 weeks in a Tommy Thies IWB and I can't find one thing I don't like about the P365.
In south florida I only wear thin t shirts and it's very easy to conceal which is very important to me, not to mention what has allready been stated in this thread.
They have a winner with this gun.
I have a couple snubs I can and sometimes carry but not lately.
I agree with the OP some good points made.
I suspect my brother will replace his G26 as soon as he tries my 365.
Now they have a 15 round mag available for the 365.
Regards
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oldiegoldie
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i'm picking up my P365 MS [manual safety] tomorrow and very excited. if it lives up to my expectations, the slide, barrel and magazines will make a trip to Robar for NP3+. it will ride in an Exarchy owb holster and eventually i'll plump for a Wright owb holster. Exarchy is best hybrid holster i've owned.
My P365 has pretty much retired my other carry guns. Carried a S&W PC .45 for a long time. I use a VersaCarry or Crossbreed for IWB carry for the P365. Occasionally rotate the .45 or a 1911 in but the P365 is the overwhelming winner.
Source please?
blues7
Member
"BBI", (BehindBlueI's), is a friend of mine from Pistol-Forum, a former plainclothes detective, current uniform sergeant for the Indianapolis P.D. He is very knowledgeable and compiles statistics from his own department as well as elsewhere in regard to shooting incidents and filtering what we can learn from them.
Craig is another associate, very well respected, (as you know), who needs little introduction to most folks who are interested in this subject and arena on the web.
oldiegoldie
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Chief Wiggums
Member
or the MP M2.0 9mm compact
oneounceload
Member
SIG is a lot smaller than the Compact which is more like a Glock 19
NEW GUN DESIGNS
I am glad whenever a new gun model comes out that is of quality and utility. More and better selection is great, even after I have settled on my CCW stable. Sometimes guns come out that folk buy in hope (due to features, etc.) that it will be of sufficient quality and they are disappointed when it really could have used more quality assurance work.
SIG P365 is one of those. Great numbers and great shooter, but not up to snuff, reliability-wise. Have not heard of any recent rashes of P365 issues. (But have not looked for, as I am not a SIG-hater.) And it sounds like it required two more redesigns to get it right. Hopefully SIG has taken care of the issues and they are high-quality, high-reliability pistols. Still, I am reinforced in my resolve not to be the alpha tester for gun companies in general and SIG in particular. But if everyone took my tack, no new gun design would get off the ground. So I am thankful for those that throw their chips to the wind and sometimes take it in the jimmy on a new gun design.
But it looks like SIG got the P365 right in the end. There are some companies that never do. Remington (R1) and Beretta (3032) come to mind.
I keep getting the desire to buy a SIG P938 or P238, so I want SIG to keep things together.
J-FRAMES vs POCKET AUTOS
As for polymer pocket autos in 9mm or better vs J-frames, I am glad both options exist. I fall on the side of the J-frame. Particularly a SW638 with a Crimson Trace LG-105 laser. Looking at the P365 vs J-frame comparison photos above, it looks like a wash for maximum LxWxH dimensions. But the configuration of those dimensions, IME, favors the J-frame for concealability, especially in the pocket. I have toted similar pocket double-stack mag polymer pistols and that fat grip and blocky slide make it harder to conceal for pocket carry. A further hit to pocket carry concealability comes in the Crimson Trace "Laser Guard," which imparts to the P365 or similar pocket double stack polymer pistols more bulk under and in front of the dust cover and makes most belt holster options a non-starter (if you want to use one). The CT LG-105 adds zero bulk to my SW638.
Why harp on the laser sight? Because it makes a short sight-radius pistol with (many times) compromised sights into a terrific hitter out to 25 yards in low light. With the DA/SA capability of my SW638, I can put up tiny groups on sihlouette heads at 25 yards even in low light, about as tiny as when I use the SA mode in good light. Let there be no doubt: laser sights on a pocket gun are a killer app.
I don't think pocket double stack polymer pistols are bad, just that they make different design compromises that value round capacity over concealability. I still own one my own self.
Where I think J-frames have stiffer competition is single stack pocket autos, especially aluminum alloy framed examples that are generally thinner than polymer single stacks. Suckers are FLAT. Like the SIG P938. Still, the Crimson Trace laser options make them less concealable and preclude the use of most belt holsters when that might be handy.
About the only thing that could woo me away from my SW638+CT LG-105 would be a SIG P938 with a real, slim laser grip. Hubba, hubba.
I am glad whenever a new gun model comes out that is of quality and utility. More and better selection is great, even after I have settled on my CCW stable. Sometimes guns come out that folk buy in hope (due to features, etc.) that it will be of sufficient quality and they are disappointed when it really could have used more quality assurance work.
SIG P365 is one of those. Great numbers and great shooter, but not up to snuff, reliability-wise. Have not heard of any recent rashes of P365 issues. (But have not looked for, as I am not a SIG-hater.) And it sounds like it required two more redesigns to get it right. Hopefully SIG has taken care of the issues and they are high-quality, high-reliability pistols. Still, I am reinforced in my resolve not to be the alpha tester for gun companies in general and SIG in particular. But if everyone took my tack, no new gun design would get off the ground. So I am thankful for those that throw their chips to the wind and sometimes take it in the jimmy on a new gun design.
But it looks like SIG got the P365 right in the end. There are some companies that never do. Remington (R1) and Beretta (3032) come to mind.
I keep getting the desire to buy a SIG P938 or P238, so I want SIG to keep things together.
J-FRAMES vs POCKET AUTOS
As for polymer pocket autos in 9mm or better vs J-frames, I am glad both options exist. I fall on the side of the J-frame. Particularly a SW638 with a Crimson Trace LG-105 laser. Looking at the P365 vs J-frame comparison photos above, it looks like a wash for maximum LxWxH dimensions. But the configuration of those dimensions, IME, favors the J-frame for concealability, especially in the pocket. I have toted similar pocket double-stack mag polymer pistols and that fat grip and blocky slide make it harder to conceal for pocket carry. A further hit to pocket carry concealability comes in the Crimson Trace "Laser Guard," which imparts to the P365 or similar pocket double stack polymer pistols more bulk under and in front of the dust cover and makes most belt holster options a non-starter (if you want to use one). The CT LG-105 adds zero bulk to my SW638.
Why harp on the laser sight? Because it makes a short sight-radius pistol with (many times) compromised sights into a terrific hitter out to 25 yards in low light. With the DA/SA capability of my SW638, I can put up tiny groups on sihlouette heads at 25 yards even in low light, about as tiny as when I use the SA mode in good light. Let there be no doubt: laser sights on a pocket gun are a killer app.
I don't think pocket double stack polymer pistols are bad, just that they make different design compromises that value round capacity over concealability. I still own one my own self.
Where I think J-frames have stiffer competition is single stack pocket autos, especially aluminum alloy framed examples that are generally thinner than polymer single stacks. Suckers are FLAT. Like the SIG P938. Still, the Crimson Trace laser options make them less concealable and preclude the use of most belt holsters when that might be handy.
About the only thing that could woo me away from my SW638+CT LG-105 would be a SIG P938 with a real, slim laser grip. Hubba, hubba.
Indeed, "but they go bang every time"...........I've had Cheif's Specials fail due to broken Rebound Springs, broken Studs, and from time to time a Firing Pin will break. Yet they always say Revolvers are the most reliable!
I just did a quick browsing of broken hammer studs in the 1980 to present section, there's many instances, I'm sure I could find lots more.
Did a weight test of various J's I own and my P365.
Ammo was Speer GD's. 135 gr for the 38's, 124's for the 9.
P365 with 10+1.... 22.45 oz
P365 with 12+1.... 23.30 oz
940 9mm 5rds..........22.80 oz factory wood magna's
M60 NY-1 5Rds ........22.80 oz factory wood magna's
38-3 Airweight 5rds ....16.35 oz factory wood magna's
The P365 has the weight and capacity advantage over the steel J's anyway you cut it.
The Airweight 38-3 has the weight advantage but not enough to give up 6-8 rds, for me. And then there's the hammer stud issue with the Airweights.
My P365 has been flawless for 1300 rds, I take reliability opinions, including those of so called experts with a grain of salt.
As far as statistics, they mean nothing when you are the 1%.
Carry what you like and are comfy with, I do. I carry mine daily, in my pocket.
Anyone who has read my issues with Sig knows I am not some fanboy of Sig. The P365 is exceptional.
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