The old progressive dilema
- Thread starter Boogsawaste
- Start date
Good lord!!! I've been loading 46 years on my RCBS single stage press. I load for about 20 calibers. I guess that I'm just an anachronism....I have thought about progressive presses, but every time I get ready to buy, some gun that I've "wanted all my life" turns up. You guys make me feel like the old timer that I am!!
One thing that struck me above, is the poster who likes to have a tray of 50 rounds to look across to see that there are no double or more charges, and no missed charges. That's me. I'm going back and read his post again.
Best Regards
One thing that struck me above, is the poster who likes to have a tray of 50 rounds to look across to see that there are no double or more charges, and no missed charges. That's me. I'm going back and read his post again.
Best Regards
jimbo728
Member
Im still using a 38 year old Rock Chucker. In 1991 I added the Piggyback
to load handgun rounds progressive. When I load rifle Calibers the Piggyback easily detaches to go back to single stage.
I understand disability, profoundly, and with that being said I still am very happy with this set up.
Jim
to load handgun rounds progressive. When I load rifle Calibers the Piggyback easily detaches to go back to single stage.
I understand disability, profoundly, and with that being said I still am very happy with this set up.
Jim
I see you are in Quakertown. If you are interested and if it's still available, I (think) I know where there is a Dillon 450 for $100.00 Read about this press up thread. The press is in the Allentown area. PM me if interested. I have no interest in the sale one way or the other and I don't know if that is a fair price or not. As of a week ago it was available not sure if it still is.
If the OP doesn't take the 450 in Allentown, PM me, I'll grab it up.
By the way, I have to agree with VanMan. I have a loadmaster, and I've run over 10K of 9mm through it. Yes every now and again I get a turned primer. Never had a double charge (almost impossible on a LM). It indexes automatically, shells feed automatically, and crimps at a dedicated station.
The trick to a Loadmaster (and any press) is a rock solid mount. And I mean rock solid as in NO MOVEMENT. It's worth the effort to keep your presses dead solid.
The only real PITA with the LM is the emptying of spent primers, But I can overlook that for saving a couple hundred dollars.
By the way, I have to agree with VanMan. I have a loadmaster, and I've run over 10K of 9mm through it. Yes every now and again I get a turned primer. Never had a double charge (almost impossible on a LM). It indexes automatically, shells feed automatically, and crimps at a dedicated station.
The trick to a Loadmaster (and any press) is a rock solid mount. And I mean rock solid as in NO MOVEMENT. It's worth the effort to keep your presses dead solid.
The only real PITA with the LM is the emptying of spent primers, But I can overlook that for saving a couple hundred dollars.
Huskerguy
Member
Boogs
Not sure where you are at in all of this so here is my 1 cents worth.
I too looked and read until I just finally made a decision. I load 6 handgun and 2 rifle calibers. I didn't mind the old Pacific SS I had, still use it. Wanted the ability to sit down and crank out some serious rounds because at that time, my time was pretty valuable and in short supply.
A friend has the original Square D and loves it to this day. He also was given a 650 for Christmas a few years ago and it took quite a bit of time to master, and this guy is a machinist by trade, no slouch. He now lives a few hours away and we got together a couple of weeks ago and he was having some problems with his 650 priming.
I did all of my research taking into consideration what I wanted to accomplish. I didn't want auto indexing, I wanted progressive, I wanted to use my existing dies, I priced every caliber change, I wanted five stations with a powder cop/check die as starters. After all of that I ended up with a LNL and have never looked back.
I don't find my LNL any different than my friends in 650 in the initial set up process and keeping the system clean and functioning. He gets powder spills that shut things down just as a LNL owner will.
My conclusion is that the trick is in the initial set up and taking time to fully understand what happens at each stroke. There are lots of moving parts and at first I didn't like that, I have to admit. There are primer shuttles moving, primers dropping, shell plates rotating and flexing, brass lining up, powder dropping, and all sorts of other things.
Sit down, calculate the costs and the features. I could have been happy with a 650 which I think more closely competes with the LNL but I chose the red machine and it has worked very well for me. There are just a ton of factors to consider besides the color and I am convinced that set up and fully understanding each operation is the key. It is not a "plug and play" system although some would have you believe it is.
Good luck
Not sure where you are at in all of this so here is my 1 cents worth.
I too looked and read until I just finally made a decision. I load 6 handgun and 2 rifle calibers. I didn't mind the old Pacific SS I had, still use it. Wanted the ability to sit down and crank out some serious rounds because at that time, my time was pretty valuable and in short supply.
A friend has the original Square D and loves it to this day. He also was given a 650 for Christmas a few years ago and it took quite a bit of time to master, and this guy is a machinist by trade, no slouch. He now lives a few hours away and we got together a couple of weeks ago and he was having some problems with his 650 priming.
I did all of my research taking into consideration what I wanted to accomplish. I didn't want auto indexing, I wanted progressive, I wanted to use my existing dies, I priced every caliber change, I wanted five stations with a powder cop/check die as starters. After all of that I ended up with a LNL and have never looked back.
I don't find my LNL any different than my friends in 650 in the initial set up process and keeping the system clean and functioning. He gets powder spills that shut things down just as a LNL owner will.
My conclusion is that the trick is in the initial set up and taking time to fully understand what happens at each stroke. There are lots of moving parts and at first I didn't like that, I have to admit. There are primer shuttles moving, primers dropping, shell plates rotating and flexing, brass lining up, powder dropping, and all sorts of other things.
Sit down, calculate the costs and the features. I could have been happy with a 650 which I think more closely competes with the LNL but I chose the red machine and it has worked very well for me. There are just a ton of factors to consider besides the color and I am convinced that set up and fully understanding each operation is the key. It is not a "plug and play" system although some would have you believe it is.
Good luck
OP
Boogsawaste
Member
Pm'd! Thanks, Allentown is 15 minutes away.
springer99
Member
I was in the same boat not too long ago, and was considering upgrading from my Lee CTP. Looked at the 550 and 650 Dillon products; not the Square Deal as I wanted to keep using all my existing dies. Also considered the LnL AP press. Although many said that their production rates with the 550 press was more than adequate, coming from my auto-indexing Lee, it just seemed like going to the Dillon 550 would be like taking a step backwards. I couldn't justify going to the 650. I ended up going to the Hornady LnL AP press which gave me 5 holes and auto-indexing. I've only been using it for a few months not, but it's been performing great. Of course, getting 500 free XTP's for my 44Mag didn't hurt. Extra benefit is that the Horndy support seems to be great and there's a lot of options out there for obtaining accessories from multiple sources.
It seems like press selection is an emotional thing for many handloaders. My feeling is there are several reasons for this but like all tools you get what you pay for. A complicated low cost progressive is, by the rules of nature, going to have some built-in compromises to accommodate it's low cost and an expensive single stage will have perhaps some extra something that appeals to those who are willing to spend more than average. But in general more money means more speed.
I do not understand the attitude that is at the core of some who imply in hushed tones that shooters who pump out lots of ammo quickly are somehow not paying attention to quality. I also don't understand the smugness of those who opt for low cost and imply also in hushed tones that they are somehow the smarter, more informed consumer.
Huskerguy, I agree with you 100%, I have a LNL and spent a lot of time researching the purchase. I've been handloading for about 3 years and have spent a ton of money on this hobby. I can afford any commercially available press on the market but since I have spent so much in such a small amount of time I needed to draw the line.
Having processed somewhere over 10k rounds and actually closer to 15k on my LNL over the last year I can say it does it's job well. A few weeks ago I had a minor issue and had to call Hornady for a new part which they sent promptly and at no cost. In the meantime I completely disassembled the press, and I mean completely took it apart. I now have a much better understanding of how it works and have it running better than ever.
So add to my list of people I don't understand are those who say thay had this press and couldn't get it to work. Out of the box my RCBS rock chucker, Lee SS and RCBS turret press worked well. But I have made a few modifications, small things to all of them to get better performance from them. I'm not a mechanical wizard, just an average Joe so if I can do it just about anyone can.
And that's my opinion on the matter.
OP
Boogsawaste
Member
Well as of earlier this afternoon I officially became a Dillon owner. Nothing new or fancy but on the tip off of Thomas15 I picked up a 450rl for $100 out the door. It is in the original box, original styrofoam, receipt from 1983 and all! Included a set of carbide does from rcbs in 45acp along with the matching shell plate. Has the manual powder measure but upgraded to the auto primer feed. Owner even kept the original manual primer feed parts!
Unfortunately no small pistol tube for the automatic primer feeder but it has the slider bar for them. So I'll have to buy the tube it looks like and some shell plates and I'll be loading!
Are the shell plates the same for the 550 and 450?
Unfortunately no small pistol tube for the automatic primer feeder but it has the slider bar for them. So I'll have to buy the tube it looks like and some shell plates and I'll be loading!
Are the shell plates the same for the 550 and 450?
Last edited:
I can't answer your shell plate question, but for $100, you struck gold.
I suffered through the Lee experience with not one but two 1000's. I bought a 650 (no, I'm not made of money but was working a lot of overtime then) and have nothing but good things to say about it and Dillon customer service. They even answer dumb questions!
I suffered through the Lee experience with not one but two 1000's. I bought a 650 (no, I'm not made of money but was working a lot of overtime then) and have nothing but good things to say about it and Dillon customer service. They even answer dumb questions!
Wee Hooker
Member
Which brings me to my wish list:
HEY LEE, how about marketing a full progressive press that uses the same 4 whole turrets as the LTC. If anybody can do it, you guys can.
HEY LEE, how about marketing a full progressive press that uses the same 4 whole turrets as the LTC. If anybody can do it, you guys can.
MyDads38
Member
I've been wondering the same thing for a few years, why can't they upgrade the Pro 1000 to a 4 hole classic design? I'd try one, if they did
fredj338
Member
There are probably more squibs & double charges done with a ss & loading blocks. Anytime you are handling multiple pieces, potential for multiple mistakes.
If you are using a progressive correctly, you are verifying each powder charge before seating a bullet. One charged case to look into, one point only to make a mistake.
Last edited:
Well, Fred, I won't argue the point, I should have made the change years ago, but I always seem to find some new gun that I need, or stock up on powder, primers, bullets, lead, etc., etc. and sometimes I'm glad I did.
Just one example: before the last ammo shortage, Walmart had federal .45 ammo for a really low price. Loaded ammo, FMJ stuff, but about as cheap as I could load it myself. And they had tons of it. And there are about 5 Walmarts around where I live. They were selling it by the 100 Rd box, and you could get it in the 500 Rd "case". I had no idea that we were facing a shortage, but every time I went into Walmart, there was all that ammo sitting there, and no one was interested. So every time I was there, I'd buy a case or two. Now don't get me wrong, I was not trying to take anything away from my fellow shooters, but it seemed prudent to buy.
6 months later, I sure was glad I did. You couldn't find any 45 anywhere, for any price. And I was doing the same thing with other calibers as well. And of course I save the brass for reloading, and I weathered the ammo famine pretty well. Also stock up on primers and powder whenever it is available, and all that takes up a lot of my disposable income.
In case you think that I am selfish, I also share my ammo with friends who didn't bother to stock up when they had the chance!
Not to mention buying guns whenever I get a chance.
So, I have just never gotten around to updating my press. May one of these days, but right now might be one of those times when I ought to stock up on powder and primers instead, because I don't like what might be coming down the road!!
Anyway, best Regards, Les
Just one example: before the last ammo shortage, Walmart had federal .45 ammo for a really low price. Loaded ammo, FMJ stuff, but about as cheap as I could load it myself. And they had tons of it. And there are about 5 Walmarts around where I live. They were selling it by the 100 Rd box, and you could get it in the 500 Rd "case". I had no idea that we were facing a shortage, but every time I went into Walmart, there was all that ammo sitting there, and no one was interested. So every time I was there, I'd buy a case or two. Now don't get me wrong, I was not trying to take anything away from my fellow shooters, but it seemed prudent to buy.
6 months later, I sure was glad I did. You couldn't find any 45 anywhere, for any price. And I was doing the same thing with other calibers as well. And of course I save the brass for reloading, and I weathered the ammo famine pretty well. Also stock up on primers and powder whenever it is available, and all that takes up a lot of my disposable income.
In case you think that I am selfish, I also share my ammo with friends who didn't bother to stock up when they had the chance!
Not to mention buying guns whenever I get a chance.
So, I have just never gotten around to updating my press. May one of these days, but right now might be one of those times when I ought to stock up on powder and primers instead, because I don't like what might be coming down the road!!
Anyway, best Regards, Les
I've been wondering the same thing for a few years, why can't they upgrade the Pro 1000 to a 4 hole classic design? I'd try one, if they did
I have no real knowledge of the mind of the Lee family but I do know a thing or two about marketing. Lee has set out to satisfy a specific segment of the reloading market. Dillon has actually done the same, it's just a different part of the market. Lee has figured out what the price that their market will pay and design their products around the cost. If they move off that point by say 10% they will lose a certain amount of market share.
If Lee were to market a progressive press to seriously compete with Dillon or Hornady then the cost will be similar to Dillon or Hornady. And no one will buy them because if you decide to pay Dillon or Hornady prices you are buying a Dillon or Hornady not Lee.
This is the reason why Lee is not probably going to incorporate the inline fabrications reverse rotating shell ejector on their turret press. If they charge the extra $40.00-$50.00 to make the change buyers will opt for an RCBS or Lyman turret press which has about 4 times the iron of the Lee. Lee knows that 98% of the buyers of their turret press are looking for the least expensive press they can find and making any changes will push the retail price in the wrong direction.
Remember one fact of life, the minute a company stops making a profit they begin a death spiral.
I don't say any of this to be mean, just the facts of life. I think it was Fred a few posts above mentioned that a Dillon 650 that you use for 25 years will end up costing about $2.00/month. And at the end of the 25 years if you decide to pass it on, someone will be delighted to take it and use it for another 25 years. You get what you pay for. How many of us have a safe full of guns that cost $600.00 or more? Most of us would be my guess.
Let me be clear, I'm not saying that your Lee press makes inferior ammo. I have one and it works fine. It's just that I like a more robust press.
Last edited:
Les no one thinks your selfish at all. If you see something and you want to buy it that's your right to do so. No apology necessary.
Not to put words in Fred's mouth but I think he is reacting to the often made implication that slower is somehow better when it comes to making your own ammo. Not saying you do it but a lot do. Personally I don't care one way or the other but we are having a conversation and I'm including myself in that conversation. There are those that imply that somehow spending less money than the next guy makes them a better person. Not saying your do that either. Don't get me wrong, those who open up their wallets wide can be obnoxious about it also but at least to their credit they are not usually making the false claim that their tooling of choice is safer than the other guys.
I have loaded 1 squib round in my life and that was on a rockchucker. My fault and I accept responsibility but I have since shot a ton of ammo from my progressive no squibs.
I fought the urge to go progressive for about a year and a half. Once I caved I found there is no going back. The damage is permanent.
But Les I agree with you, having a stock of powder, primers and bullets with a single stage press to process your ammo is far better than having a high cost progressive and no powder. And I think that now is a good time to stock up.
Last edited:
MJFlores
Member
I'm still using the Rockchucker I bought in the 80s and cant see myself moving away from it. I'm in no hurry. I have my own range and do quite a bit of shooting, and have no problems keeping up. I mostly buy bulk 9mm and 556 because you just cant load as cheap as you can buy loaded ammo. I mean, I'm getting 9mm at 10.50 a box and 500 556 LC for 159.00. I load all my .44 and .357 revolver rounds as well as .223, .30/06, and .32 Win special. It's expensive buying bullets and primers. I break up loading chores into stages and it doesn't seem to be taking it's toll
I've been using the Hornady LNLAP since 2008, I like it a lot. I like the bushing system for plugging in dies, the auto index, 5 stations, and it won't dump primers on the floor.
Presses seem to accumulate on my benches and in the drawers around them, the only ones I've sold were a piggyback-2 to help fund my first Dillon and a lee ammomaster, it was too much like playing a game of mousetrap.
The cost on the 450 that Boogsawaste got was amazing and I'm sure with the ability to use standard dies it will work out well, I will say that I think a SQ-Deal-B might be easier on the shoulders. I think the lower reciprocating mass and shorter stroke make the little SQ-DB about the lightest press to work I've used. If it was me with a bum shoulder, I'd take the profit on selling the 450 and some dies and get a SQ-DB.
The cost on the 450 that Boogsawaste got was amazing and I'm sure with the ability to use standard dies it will work out well, I will say that I think a SQ-Deal-B might be easier on the shoulders. I think the lower reciprocating mass and shorter stroke make the little SQ-DB about the lightest press to work I've used. If it was me with a bum shoulder, I'd take the profit on selling the 450 and some dies and get a SQ-DB.
When you have a limited income, especially if you are raising a family, it can be very difficult to justify spending the same amount of money to buy a press like the Dillon 550 or 650, especially if your mindset is "I can buy another gun for that price.". Remember though, that Dillon stuff doesn't depreciate. Keep and use it long enough and you'll still be able to sell it for what you paid or even more.
fredj338
Member
Les, i'm not pushing anyone into a progressive, use what you like, i am just clarifying a false assumption that one process a safer than another.
As to cost of ammo vs reloading, if you can buy decent practice ammo for the cost of reloading, you are not purchasing your reloading supplies at the right places or quabtities to save real money. 50% of factory is the ballpark. If you shoot a lot, that is quite a bit of savings.
Qc Pistolero
Member
450shellplate
To answer your question Boogsawaste,I have a RL300 and the shellplates are the same as the 550.So I guess that the logical answer to your question is yes but just to make sure,send an email to Dillon and they will confirm.That's how I learned about it.
Qc
To answer your question Boogsawaste,I have a RL300 and the shellplates are the same as the 550.So I guess that the logical answer to your question is yes but just to make sure,send an email to Dillon and they will confirm.That's how I learned about it.
Qc
Les when people stock up when supplies are plentiful, it's not selfish it's smart. You didn't knock over any old ladies trying to get the bullets. If it's available I buy, when it's not I shoot very conservatively from my supply.
Clovishound
Member
fredj338
Member
Very true. And now would be a great time to start stocking up for perhaps another drought. No one knows what will happen but smart is being prepared. Even during the depth of the last shortage I was able to find powder but no way do I want to go through that again. And I will not because my bunker is in good shape.
Powder and primers a plenty. Bullets are the next thing. I think we all should have several years worth of supplies by the end of October just in case.
Flipmeister, I am still loading out of an 8 lb. keg of bullseye that was given to me in the early 70s, I think, by a guy who had had it "for awhile", and was afraid it might "go bad". Still performs just as it did back then. I use it for things like 32 S&W, where I load about two grains per cartridge. At 7,000 gr per pound, 8 pounds goes a long way. But my point is, it is still perfectly fine after at least 40 years, probably longer.
So, no, I don't worry about stocking up, ammo and primers ans lead and powder last a long time!!
Best Regards, Les
So, no, I don't worry about stocking up, ammo and primers ans lead and powder last a long time!!
Best Regards, Les
