The Russians have gone in

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I read a very long article in the Guardian (British) newspaper this morning. Distilling it down to its basics, the military analyst who wrote it said that the Ukraine affair can end in only one of two ways - either nuclear war or capitulation of Ukraine to the Russians. But it may take awhile to find out which and by what means. The article was very convincing.

Well, that's a cheery thought, isn't it? Unfortunately, it might prove to be accurate...

I heard an analyst point out, on one of the news channels, that Putin has been invading other countries in the region for years, and has always been able to get away with it. So that's his mindset from the start...he apparently doesn't think he can be defeated, so he'll keep pushing.

The other consideration is that this is the Russian way of war: the indiscriminate killing of civilians and the wanton destruction of property. It's their "thing", the strategy that has served them well for decades...so it's what they're doing this time around as well.

I hate to say this, and I certainly don't want American troops placed in harm's way...but perhaps the best thing for Ukraine and the world right now would be an errant Russian shot into Poland...or something else to get the EU and NATO off their butts...
 
..."or something else to get the
EU and NAtO off their butts."

Funny, I don't assume they are
just "sitting around." I believe
they are calculating and at this
point helping Ukraine the best
way they can. I also believe
the Russian generals and other
leadership have been in contact
with their EU/NATO counterparts.

And I believe NATO knows full
well just what is going on with
the nuclear "alert" in Russia.

NATO forces have never been
so close and in such force to
Russia's eastern population
centers than now with their
140 million citizens.
 
Beemerguy53;141418051...but perhaps the best thing for Ukraine and the world right now would be an errant Russian shot into Poland...[/QUOTE said:
I have seen this basic line of thought echoed across many MSM comment sections, web blogs, indie sites and gun forums. It is gaining speed and a lot of viewers wish it so. That game will change if Poland is attacked.
 
You mean Evans Carlson? Popularized the phrase "Gung-Ho". 2nd Raider Battalion Commanding Officer.

Wiki:
Second and third China tours:

After his Warm Springs tour Carlson was posted to the 4th Marines in Shanghai. Shortly afterward he was transferred to the Marine detachment, American Legation, Peiping, China, where he served as adjutant and studied the Chinese language. In 1936, he returned to the United States via Japan. At home he served at Quantico while attending Marine Corps Schools, and studying International Law and Politics at George Washington University in Washington, D.C.

He went back to China for the third time in 1937 as an official student of the Chinese language and as a military observer with Chinese forces. There he was afforded the opportunity to learn the tactics of the Japanese soldier.

He met Edgar Snow in China and read Snow's Red Star Over China. This encounter led him to visit the Chinese communist troop headquarters in northern China, where he met Chinese Communist leaders such as Mao Zedong, Zhou Enlai and Deng Xiaoping. Traveling thousands of miles through the interior of China with the communist guerrillas, often on foot and horseback over the most hazardous terrain, he lived under the same primitive conditions. He was impressed by the tactics used by Chinese Communist guerrillas to fight Japanese troops. Carlson adopted the phrase "gung ho" from Rewi Alley's Chinese Industrial Cooperatives.[3] Carlson often had leftwing political views, prompting General David M. Shoup to say of him, "He may be red, but he's not yellow."[4]

When Carlson left China in 1938, he was commended by the commander in chief of the Asiatic Fleet for his services. Carlson was so impressed with the danger of Japanese aggression in the Far East that in 1939, he resigned his commission as a captain in order to be free to write and lecture on that subject. When the danger he foresaw neared reality in 1941, Carlson applied to be recommissioned in the Marine Corps and was accepted with the rank of major.

AJ, you win a cigar! Carlson was the man. Read how most other USMC generals predicted a few week battles to capture such and such Jap held island and battle was Months long. Most continued to hold their " status".
 
I read a very long article in the Guardian (British) newspaper this morning. Distilling it down to its basics, the military analyst who wrote it said that the Ukraine affair can end in only one of two ways - either nuclear war or capitulation of Ukraine to the Russians. But it may take awhile to find out which and by what means. The article was very convincing.
Yes, I read that, too and was trying to find it again to post the link, bu so far no luck. I don't like the Guardian's "slant" but their journalism is good.

Here's another one from today, by a Russian author and journalist:

Ordinary Russians did not want this war, but Putin is trying to make us all complicit
"...This war was not wanted by the ordinary people who are going to pay for it. Nor by the businesses that will collapse as a result, nor the so-called elites who will be cut off from the world and deprived of their usual feeding troughs. Since the war began, normal life ended for everyone in Russia, and life under martial law began...

...Those who believe this propaganda must remember that the rest of the world now sees Russians as invaders. Before too long, they will see us as war criminals. And this will become a part of our history for ever. We are all being smeared – smeared with the blood of peaceful Ukrainians and our conscripts, who were sent into hell "for training exercises".​
 
Maybe send in UN Peacekeepers to get the civilians out? Don't think Putin would be stupid enough to attack them. But who knows?

UN troops get attacked everywhere in the world with little or no effective response. Why would Russia be different?

Stalin set the tone for Soviet/Russian attitude toward world opinion. When he did something against Catholic churches some brave individual supposedly wondered about how the Pope would react. Stalin's comment: "How many divisions does the Pope have?"
 
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Interesting perspective from China, although I note it was written ten days ago and the author thought China had one to two weeks to dump Russia in its own self interest.

Here's an an interview with Francis Fukuyama who believes Putin is destined to lose big and Western democracies win big. An awfully rosy view, to be sure:

https://wapo.st/3KGeBLD
 
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Interesting read. But, China's interest will always be Chinese interests, socialist solidarity not withstanding. That being the case, the article is floating viewpoints China wants the West/world to think they're considering. I rather doubt China gives a rodents hindquarters about world opinion.

I kinda expect some trade/support to continue with Russia, clandestine if possible. The Chinese playbook is to create debt, both monetary and in influence and then comes the "you owe us" request. How polite the request is can vary significantly.
 
..."or something else to get the
EU and NAtO off their butts."

Funny, I don't assume they are
just "sitting around." I believe
they are calculating and at this
point helping Ukraine the best
way they can. I also believe
the Russian generals and other
leadership have been in contact
with their EU/NATO counterparts.

And I believe NATO knows full
well just what is going on with
the nuclear "alert" in Russia.

NATO forces have never been
so close and in such force to
Russia's eastern population
centers than now with their
140 million citizens.

Excellent points...thanks. I didn't mean to imply that NATO was doing nothing, though I can see how my post might have been taken that way (I didn't express myself well).

NATO and the EU are doing a lot right now to support Ukraine, and I'm sure they will respond if a NATO member is attacked...but nothing is being done directly to intervene to stop the daily slaughter of Ukrainian civilians, and the killing continues unabated.

It's very frustrating watching this play out...
 
I had to do a little more pruning…

Seems this thread needs a refresher:

Chad, as I'm sure you and the other moderators have realized, this thread is providing a valuable outlet for serious and thoughtful discussion of this historically tragic situation. There are a lot of us here -- and I am certainly one of them -- who are very concerned about this whole situation, not just for the Ukrainian people, but for what it portends for the future.

Thanks very much for policing things here, and keeping our discussion open... :)
 
Watching the news today seems to indicate the predators of the world are watching the events, sense a weakness and are on the hunt.

I think that's always the case...and we watch them too, looking for signs of hostile intent. And I think that's why it's all the more important for the world not to let Putin and his thugs get away with this.
 
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