The Safety Situation

[Ray1970]

No.

I wouldn't want to say the striker is "this much" cocked but it's not fully cocked. You're not walking around with a gun in condition zero.

The striker isn't fully cocked and it can't go forward until it is.

We will have to disagree. My M&P's, XD's, XDM, and VP9 have the striker pretty much fully retracted. Pulling the trigger on these guns simply releases the striker. In fact, when I first started shooting an XDM in IDPA they wouldn't even lest you compete in SSP with the Glocks because the XDM was considered "single action" as the trigger only released a fully "cocked" striker whereas the Glock was considered "double action" because pulling the trigger served two purposes- completing the "cocking" of the striker and then releasing it.

 

[Smakmauz]

We will have to disagree. My M&P's, XD's, XDM, and VP9 have the striker pretty much fully retracted. Pulling the trigger on these guns simply releases the striker. In fact, when I first started shooting an XDM in IDPA they wouldn't even lest you compete in SSP with the Glocks because the XDM was considered "single action" as the trigger only released a fully "cocked" striker whereas the Glock was considered "double action" because pulling the trigger served two purposes- completing the "cocking" of the striker and then releasing it.

^^^^yep!! you nailed it!

 

[Smoke]

If your using the term "fully cocked" to define pulling the trigger half way, then you are correct... It is just semantics. Because pulling halfway disables the striker block. Pulling the rest of the way just releases the striker, except for a very tiny amount (like 2%) which wouldn't even be needed for most primers to ignite.

I have hundreds of hours into messing around with and studying the internals of this system and it is much different than glocks set up which is more like what you are describing.

Maybe I'm not saying it right but even if it's only 2% doesn't the striker have to go back before it can go forward?

 

[Ray1970]

Maybe I'm not saying it right but even if it's only 2% doesn't the striker have to go back before it can go forward?

I think any rearward movement of the striker is simply a result of a bit of negative engagement between the striker and sear. Technically, the striker doesn't need to move rearward before being released. Not sure if I explained that where it makes sense or not. Basically, the angles where the sear and striker engage are set up to achieve a safe and positive engagement. So, when the trigger is pulled the striker does move rearward ever so slightly.

 

[Ray1970]

Oh, the Glock is a slightly different animal and the striker does move rearward by design. Basically the Glock is kind of "half cocked" and pulling the trigger completes the rearward travel of the striker before being released.

Things like the M&P, XD, VP9, and the P320 and probably other striker fired models differ from the Glock.

 

[Smakmauz]

Maybe I'm not saying it right but even if it's only 2% doesn't the striker have to go back before it can go forward?

Here is a very good explaination of it:

I think any rearward movement of the striker is simply a result of a bit of negative engagement between the striker and sear. Technically, the striker doesn't NEED to move rearward before being released. Not sure if I explained that where it makes sense or not. Basically, the angles where the sear and striker engage are set up to achieve a safe and positive engagement. So, when the trigger is pulled the striker does move rearward ever so slightly.

maybe let me try to put it another way. once you rack the slide the striker is cocked to a point that if, all of the sudden in a millisecond, the striker block and the sear disappeared, the striker would spring forward and ignite the primer and fire the gun. Gun condition codes don't seem to apply the same to striker guns because all the codes are set up for DA\SA guns with a hammer, but you can kind of think of the M&P system like condition 1/2... mag loaded, round chambered, Striker(hammer) cocked, safety off. except that we now have striker block safeties and trigger shoe safeties which are automatic as you pull the trigger. Somewhere between condition zero and condition one.

that 2% of movement, like Ray noted is basically just there to add some friction to make the trigger "safer".

If you look at apex sears, they actually remove material from the little nub that engages the striker to lessen that friction Ray mentioned. it also serves to lighten the trigger pull and make it more crisp so it doesn't have that sort of slightly round feel the stock triggers have. that's why the sell the duty/carry kits with heavier than stock springs.

anyway, hopefully this all helps you understand the system a little better. I've harped on it enough so I'm gonna bow out of this conversation and get on road.

 

[kbm6893]

I'd have to read it again but I remember she was either IN the room or was walking in.

I think in this case they mean it was on purpose and not a accidental discharge or a malfunctioning gun. As in.... for whatever reason he wanted her dead

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Really? If you have a link with that info I'd like to
See it. As I said, DA's are in the troopers pockets in PA and they rarely get prosecuted. I love cops but some of the things I've read about were real suspicious.

 

[Arik]

Really? If you have a link with that info I'd like to
See it. As I said, DA's are in the troopers pockets in PA and they rarely get prosecuted. I love cops but some of the things I've read about were real suspicious.

Former Pa. state trooper charged in shooting deaths of pregnant wife, baby

"Investigators determined that the muzzle of Miller's firearm was between 3 and 6 inches away from his wife's head when he shot her, the affidavit says."

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

 

[Hybrid556]

Or you use the practice of holding the gun in a normal shooting grip but pull your thumb back to where it's resting on the back of the slide. This is a good bolstering technique for striker guns because you can also feel if the slide goes out of battery when inserted. This also seems makes the grip safety function

Even at this point you have a partial grip on the firearm. I understand what you are saying, but anytime you break your grip on the handgun you run the risk of losing control of the firearm.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

 

[Island Boy]

A "Glock leg" will happen with a Shield if one doesn't use the thumb safety and keeps his finger on the trigger. All these safeties only work if YOU use them. Glock leg won't happen if the finger is not on the trigger..... which it shouldn't be in the first place. If you look on YouTube there's a guy who gave himself a Glock leg with a 1911! A gun with TWO safeties!!!!

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

If you consider the trigger, a 1911 has 3 safeties!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[kbm6893]

Former Pa. state trooper charged in shooting deaths of pregnant wife, baby

"Investigators determined that the muzzle of Miller's firearm was between 3 and 6 inches away from his wife's head when he shot her, the affidavit says."

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Wow. Still, took 3 years to see muzzle was 3-6" away from his wife's head? Coroner would have seen that in two seconds.

Still, looks like he didn't mean to kill her and both charges are misdemeanors. Either way, another reason why I don't like Glocks and innever clean guns in the house.

 

[Arik]

Coroner would have seen that in two seconds.

Still, looks like he didn't mean to kill her and both charges are misdemeanors. Either way, another reason why I don't like Glocks and innever clean guns in the house.

I think some of that has to do with the way it's reported.

The takedown doesn't bother me. Forgetting to take a round out is dangerous in any gun. I can take guns apart with my eyes closed (figure of speech) in the house or not. First thing I do is drop mag and pull slide back, then put my finger in the chamber and look inside. People will dry fire their guns all day long but will be afraid to pull the trigger for takedown


Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

 

[white cloud]

I think I read somewheres that there have been a few Glocks in which the firing pin block got stuck in the "fire" position. I am no expert on striker fired pistols but I check that this block is working on ALL my auto loading pistols whenever I clean them.

 

[wrangler5]

I think I read somewheres that there have been a few Glocks in which the firing pin block got stuck in the "fire" position. I am no expert on striker fired pistols but I check that this block is working on ALL my auto loading pistols whenever I clean them.

There is reputed to be a subculture in the Glock community whose goal is to see how long their gun will "work" without cleaning. Ten thousand rounds without cleaning is just getting started for this crowd. It would not surprise me if some Glocks which will still fire and cycle, nevertheless are "working" with a striker block that's stuck in the "fire" position because nobody checked in the 5 years since the gun was last cleaned.

 

[Smoke]

Here is a very good explaination of it:



maybe let me try to put it another way. once you rack the slide the striker is cocked to a point that if, all of the sudden in a millisecond, the striker block and the sear disappeared, the striker would spring forward and ignite the primer and fire the gun. Gun condition codes don't seem to apply the same to striker guns because all the codes are set up for DA\SA guns with a hammer, but you can kind of think of the M&P system like condition 1/2... mag loaded, round chambered, Striker(hammer) cocked, safety off. except that we now have striker block safeties and trigger shoe safeties which are automatic as you pull the trigger. Somewhere between condition zero and condition one.

that 2% of movement, like Ray noted is basically just there to add some friction to make the trigger "safer".

If you look at apex sears, they actually remove material from the little nub that engages the striker to lessen that friction Ray mentioned. it also serves to lighten the trigger pull and make it more crisp so it doesn't have that sort of slightly round feel the stock triggers have. that's why the sell the duty/carry kits with heavier than stock springs.

anyway, hopefully this all helps you understand the system a little better. I've harped on it enough so I'm gonna bow out of this conversation and get on road.

I think any rearward movement of the striker is simply a result of a bit of negative engagement between the striker and sear. Technically, the striker doesn't need to move rearward before being released. Not sure if I explained that where it makes sense or not. Basically, the angles where the sear and striker engage are set up to achieve a safe and positive engagement. So, when the trigger is pulled the striker does move rearward ever so slightly.

OK.

These two explainations make sense. Thanks for taking time to clarify.

 

[Smoke]

There is reputed to be a subculture in the Glock community whose goal is to see how long their gun will "work" without cleaning. Ten thousand rounds without cleaning is just getting started for this crowd. It would not surprise me if some Glocks which will still fire and cycle, nevertheless are "working" with a striker block that's stuck in the "fire" position because nobody checked in the 5 years since the gun was last cleaned.

There's a guy on Glock Talk who has frozen his Glock in saltwater, buried it for a year, threw it out of an Air Plane, filled the magazine with sand, I think he did everything but hide it in his cat's litter box.


18yrs and 200K + rounds, I think it's worn out. | Page 2 | The Leading Glock Forum and Community - GlockTalk.com

 

[1sailor]

I would think that anyone who has the patience to bury their pistol for a year just to see what happens probably doesn't shoot it more than once a year anyway.

 

[Smakmauz]

OK.

These two explainations make sense. Thanks for taking time to clarify.

cool beans

 

[Smakmauz]

People will dry fire their guns all day long but will be afraid to pull the trigger for takedown

exactly. I never understood that gripe about pulling the trigger for takedown. I figure if you can't be bothered with safety checking prior to handling or simply don't think about it, you shouldn't be messing with guns in the first place.

 

[Smoke]

I would think that anyone who has the patience to bury their pistol for a year just to see what happens probably doesn't shoot it more than once a year anyway.

You might want to check him out over on Glock talk I think he's claiming something like two hundred thousand rounds through that weapon now and it's like 25 years old

 

[Ray1970]

You might want to check him out over on Glock talk I think he's claiming something like two hundred thousand rounds through that weapon now and it's like 25 years old

That's roughly $40,000 worth of ammunition. I bet he could spend another $500 and buy a new pistol as I'm sure his has to have some excessive wear.

 

[Smoke]

That's roughly $40,000 worth of ammunition. I bet he could spend another $500 and buy a new pistol as I'm sure his has to have some excessive wear.

18yrs and 200K + rounds, I think it's worn out. | Page 2 | The Leading Glock Forum and Community - GlockTalk.com

I haven't read the entire story but I think he decided that he wanted to see how much he could put the gun through before it failed

 

[Walkingwolf]

I think it's also why you see most of the striker fired guns coming from the factory with 5-6lb trigger weights. It's a compromise between the heavy 11-12lb DA triggers and super light 2-3lb SA. I think there is a slight bit more engagement between the sear and striker to pull through than on DA/SA guns in SA mode. It's not much but it makes enough of a difference to make people more comfortable carrying without a manual safety.

I've never seen anyone carrying a 1911 cocked and NOT locked for this reason.

I have seen lefties carry 1911's condition 0 mostly 3 decades ago though. None of the ones I knew that carried that way had an ND. 80 series 1911's have a FP block, they are just as safe to carry with no safety as a Glock. If one looks at the history of 1911 semi auto they will find that the 1910 did not have a thumb safety.

 

[hdtwice]

Originally Posted by Ray1970 View Post
We will have to disagree. My M&P's, XD's, XDM, and VP9 have the striker pretty much fully retracted. Pulling the trigger on these guns simply releases the striker. In fact, when I first started shooting an XDM in IDPA they wouldn't even lest you compete in SSP with the Glocks because the XDM was considered "single action" as the trigger only released a fully "cocked" striker whereas the Glock was considered "double action" because pulling the trigger served two purposes- completing the "cocking" of the striker and then releasing it.

^^^^yep!! you nailed it!

So would either of you say that the glock is a bit safer when carrying from accidents from either a finger, or some bit of fabric getting into the trigger guard as opposed to my shield?
I really like my shield but as a new guy making some decisions on safety on or not, it sounds like the glock might have been a better choice due to a somewhat "middle ground" on the trigger pull.
In an earlier post Smakmauz was talking about the striker in the shield being about 98 percent cocked vs. the glocks 60 to 70 percent cocked ... any difference in safety? Thanks for any input.

 

[Smakmauz]

Originally Posted by Ray1970 View Post
We will have to disagree. My M&P's, XD's, XDM, and VP9 have the striker pretty much fully retracted. Pulling the trigger on these guns simply releases the striker. In fact, when I first started shooting an XDM in IDPA they wouldn't even lest you compete in SSP with the Glocks because the XDM was considered "single action" as the trigger only released a fully "cocked" striker whereas the Glock was considered "double action" because pulling the trigger served two purposes- completing the "cocking" of the striker and then releasing it.




So would either of you say that the glock is a bit safer when carrying from accidents from either a finger, or some bit of fabric getting into the trigger guard as opposed to my shield?
I really like my shield but as a new guy making some decisions on safety on or not, it sounds like the glock might have been a better choice due to a somewhat "middle ground" on the trigger pull.
In an earlier post Smakmauz was talking about the striker in the shield being about 98 percent cocked vs. the glocks 60 to 70 percent cocked ... any difference in safety? Thanks for any input.

I'll say this, when I first started carrying, I was more comfortable carrying my shield with the safety on. I trained to draw and take the safety off in a single motion and got good at it. After I became more comfortable with carrying firearms and got a lit more familiar with their operations I am perfectly comfortable carrying a glock or M&P with no external safeties. I like about a 4.5-5.5lb trigger pull on my carry guns with a good amount of pretravel like the stock m2.0. Which is what I'm going to be carrying as soon as my holster from stealth gear arrives.

I would have said that the glock system is just a bit safer because of the sort of half cocked nature but I've been hearing stories of failures where even at half cock, being able to ignite a primer so I'm not really sure anymore. I always thought that was the purpose of the "safe action" trigger system to hold it in a position where it wouldn't have enough energy to ignite the primer if it failed but still took up some of the trigger weight. But if it can still ignite primers even in a half cocked state then I don't see a point in dealing with their system since there are far better systems out there.