I posted this in another thread but believe it needs its own thread for all input to be considered.
PLEASE RATE THIS THREAD after you review it. A few more points and Lee will award me a new kitchen toaster. (NOT)
The topic would be the subtle (and sometimes illusive) minor changes made within a model number that did not show up with a "dash" model change. If you have observed something like this, please share it with us.
For example, I have noticed the first bunch of 39-2s in nickel had the trigger, slide stop and safety lever nickeled. Appx to A240xxx (amended 2/12/18 as I have seen a A233xxx with nickel slide stop and safety lever), IIRC, after which those items were blued. It actually looks sexier with the blued components, I think, but that's one production change that did not have a DASH number for the revision.
The production number Sevens quoted of 347,000 is likely accurate for the entire 39 series pistols. There is surely NO shortage of 39-2s, so much so that I am amazed with some of the sale prices over the past year or two. It isn't even that difficult to find one ANIB, NIB or NOS.
Prior to 2 year ago you would find an abundant "glut" of 39-2s for sale (as you do now but at much higher ask prices), all in the $300 range or less. A bit MORE in ANIB but rarely over $450.00. Seems I should have banked more 39-2s than I did but the current price trend makes no sense. Another recent price trend on S&W Model 28 (Highway Patrolman matte finish .357 magnums) is another one I cannot reason with. A recent as 2007 year I recall dealer tables full of used / trade in Model 28s the dealers could not get $250 for.
The semi-automatic serial numbers started in 1954 with 1001 on the, then new, 9mm pistol ... what we now call a "pre-39". In the 2600 serial number range the MODEL 39 stamping began. At "about" serial number 109xxx-110xxx the "A" prefix (about 1972) was added to comply with the new (then) Federal regulations, however S&W continued the same serial numbers except now with the "A" prefix. There are some overlaps both ways such as M-39s with a A and 39-2s with out the A). The S&W Semi-Auto serial numbers continued from appx A109xxx on up to A8xxxxx (for sure) may have even gone into the A9xxxxx range.
The S&W automatic serial number range started at Serial Number 1001 (the lowest I have seen is 1021) and continued well into the A8xxxxx for sure, however, this included ALL automatic pistols, including but not limited to: Pre-39, 39, 39-2, 44 (less than 10 produced), 41, 46, 52, 52-A (87 produced, in-house designation 39-1), 52-1, 52-2, 59, 147A (limited production) , 439, 539, 639, 459, 559, 659 into the entire 39xx and 59xx series (until alhpa-numeric started), 645s, 45xx series.
I have a theory about in-house designation(s) of "39-2" prior to the commercial release of the production issue 39-2 but that will have to be put off for another thread on another day.
The steel 39 frames were released in 3 known serial number ranges. From memory (without any books in front of me) those ranges are in (OR NEAR) 35xxx, 62xxx, 85xxx. These steel frame serial ranges are not carved in stone but are found "in" and "close" to these SN ranges.
All steel frames 39s are marked "MODEL 39". No 39-2 steel frames were commercially released. NO Steel frame MODEL 39s were nickel plated (as far as we can determine at this time). There were MODEL 39 (alloy frames) in nickel. The official reply from S&W is the "standard" reply that 10% of the production of near any model were produced in nickel.
IIRC somewhere in the mid to late 1980s went over to the alpha-numeric serial numbers in a whole new set of serial numbers. The most abundantly produced 39's were clearly the 39-2s. Contrary to other beliefs there is NO shortage of 39-2s, neither in blue or nickel. An abundance of blue 39-s and very many nickel 39-2s were produced and are still out there. If you feel you need to own one (or ANOTHER one) just watch the auctions and be patient. Of course the NIB, ANIB and NOS will cost you more, as in near anything else.
The 39 series started off slowly as S&W was hesitant and not quite over the failure of the .35 S&W auto model 1913 and equally doom fated (both for illogical reasons) .32 ACPs which were produced well into the 1920s.
The 9mm semi-automatic caught on slowly but surely. It was not an overnight success for a few reasons, the largest (I feel) was to convince the LEO culture that a semi-automatic 9mm was more beneficial than prior LEO guns. Metric calibers in the USA were tabu back then as were automobiles with Metric size bolts. It was a task to convince the S&W 9mm Semi Autos were better than the old wheel guns used in LEO for the prior 100 years.
Earlier years sales were not fantastic but by the 1960s started to pick up speed, then, by the 1970s the S&W 9mm pistol had finally "arrived".
Early on S&W decided to go with the double-action trigger producing less than 10 single action models which were carried on the "ALL MODEL CIRCULARS" into the 1960s.
The 39s are remarkable semi-autos. Very user friendly, accurate, reliable ( I have yet, to this day 40 years after my 1st 39) to have a misfire, ejection problem or malfunction of any nature with ANY S&W 9mm semi auto of the 1st, 2nd or 3rd generation production. I exclude 2 ammo related issues as they were clearly NOT S&W malfunctions.
It also has the benefit of the quick-reset trigger after the 1st double action pull (which I have had to add to some of my favorite Sigs). In the beginning there was much talk about the trigger, quick-reset feature and the safety (some call a decocker which is not in the true sense of the word ... a decocker). Who liked it, who didn't, pros / cons, blah, blah but all comes down to this ... it WAS and IS a remarkable S&W original concept.
It is apparent to look at it, the 39 borrowed heavily from both the Walther P-38 (not P-08, thank you Brad), the Browning 1911 (thank you Brad) and Browning High Power. In fact, the 39 safety and decocker is justly named a "Walther's safety" while truly not a "decocker" in the European sense.
The very many engineering changes or subtle revisions within a certain model semi-automatic (without a DASH designation) is what makes collecting S&W semi-autos even more attractive.
To identify and determine these subtle changes is more a "subculture" among S&W semi-auto collectors. We can get sort of finicky about these subtle changes as well.
S&WCA member Richard McMillan was one of first serious 39 (and other S&W semi-auto) collectors authoring a few article in the S&W Journal. In the past he has been very kind to me in helping with specific production data and these sub-culture" revisions, changes and anomalies to sending me photocopies of magazine articles and dealer notes (pre-internet days).
S&W 39/59 magazine types, revisions and other oddities have also become a sub-culture of collecting from the different followers right on down to the lazy ampersand, long tongue (in different lengths), stamped "A", followers, welds types and variances, military types, etc.
Welcome to the 39-culture (or sub-culture). Jump right in. R.S. "Sal" Raimondi
PLEASE RATE THIS THREAD after you review it. A few more points and Lee will award me a new kitchen toaster. (NOT)
The topic would be the subtle (and sometimes illusive) minor changes made within a model number that did not show up with a "dash" model change. If you have observed something like this, please share it with us.
For example, I have noticed the first bunch of 39-2s in nickel had the trigger, slide stop and safety lever nickeled. Appx to A240xxx (amended 2/12/18 as I have seen a A233xxx with nickel slide stop and safety lever), IIRC, after which those items were blued. It actually looks sexier with the blued components, I think, but that's one production change that did not have a DASH number for the revision.
The production number Sevens quoted of 347,000 is likely accurate for the entire 39 series pistols. There is surely NO shortage of 39-2s, so much so that I am amazed with some of the sale prices over the past year or two. It isn't even that difficult to find one ANIB, NIB or NOS.
Prior to 2 year ago you would find an abundant "glut" of 39-2s for sale (as you do now but at much higher ask prices), all in the $300 range or less. A bit MORE in ANIB but rarely over $450.00. Seems I should have banked more 39-2s than I did but the current price trend makes no sense. Another recent price trend on S&W Model 28 (Highway Patrolman matte finish .357 magnums) is another one I cannot reason with. A recent as 2007 year I recall dealer tables full of used / trade in Model 28s the dealers could not get $250 for.
The semi-automatic serial numbers started in 1954 with 1001 on the, then new, 9mm pistol ... what we now call a "pre-39". In the 2600 serial number range the MODEL 39 stamping began. At "about" serial number 109xxx-110xxx the "A" prefix (about 1972) was added to comply with the new (then) Federal regulations, however S&W continued the same serial numbers except now with the "A" prefix. There are some overlaps both ways such as M-39s with a A and 39-2s with out the A). The S&W Semi-Auto serial numbers continued from appx A109xxx on up to A8xxxxx (for sure) may have even gone into the A9xxxxx range.
The S&W automatic serial number range started at Serial Number 1001 (the lowest I have seen is 1021) and continued well into the A8xxxxx for sure, however, this included ALL automatic pistols, including but not limited to: Pre-39, 39, 39-2, 44 (less than 10 produced), 41, 46, 52, 52-A (87 produced, in-house designation 39-1), 52-1, 52-2, 59, 147A (limited production) , 439, 539, 639, 459, 559, 659 into the entire 39xx and 59xx series (until alhpa-numeric started), 645s, 45xx series.
I have a theory about in-house designation(s) of "39-2" prior to the commercial release of the production issue 39-2 but that will have to be put off for another thread on another day.
The steel 39 frames were released in 3 known serial number ranges. From memory (without any books in front of me) those ranges are in (OR NEAR) 35xxx, 62xxx, 85xxx. These steel frame serial ranges are not carved in stone but are found "in" and "close" to these SN ranges.
All steel frames 39s are marked "MODEL 39". No 39-2 steel frames were commercially released. NO Steel frame MODEL 39s were nickel plated (as far as we can determine at this time). There were MODEL 39 (alloy frames) in nickel. The official reply from S&W is the "standard" reply that 10% of the production of near any model were produced in nickel.
IIRC somewhere in the mid to late 1980s went over to the alpha-numeric serial numbers in a whole new set of serial numbers. The most abundantly produced 39's were clearly the 39-2s. Contrary to other beliefs there is NO shortage of 39-2s, neither in blue or nickel. An abundance of blue 39-s and very many nickel 39-2s were produced and are still out there. If you feel you need to own one (or ANOTHER one) just watch the auctions and be patient. Of course the NIB, ANIB and NOS will cost you more, as in near anything else.
The 39 series started off slowly as S&W was hesitant and not quite over the failure of the .35 S&W auto model 1913 and equally doom fated (both for illogical reasons) .32 ACPs which were produced well into the 1920s.
The 9mm semi-automatic caught on slowly but surely. It was not an overnight success for a few reasons, the largest (I feel) was to convince the LEO culture that a semi-automatic 9mm was more beneficial than prior LEO guns. Metric calibers in the USA were tabu back then as were automobiles with Metric size bolts. It was a task to convince the S&W 9mm Semi Autos were better than the old wheel guns used in LEO for the prior 100 years.
Earlier years sales were not fantastic but by the 1960s started to pick up speed, then, by the 1970s the S&W 9mm pistol had finally "arrived".
Early on S&W decided to go with the double-action trigger producing less than 10 single action models which were carried on the "ALL MODEL CIRCULARS" into the 1960s.
The 39s are remarkable semi-autos. Very user friendly, accurate, reliable ( I have yet, to this day 40 years after my 1st 39) to have a misfire, ejection problem or malfunction of any nature with ANY S&W 9mm semi auto of the 1st, 2nd or 3rd generation production. I exclude 2 ammo related issues as they were clearly NOT S&W malfunctions.
It also has the benefit of the quick-reset trigger after the 1st double action pull (which I have had to add to some of my favorite Sigs). In the beginning there was much talk about the trigger, quick-reset feature and the safety (some call a decocker which is not in the true sense of the word ... a decocker). Who liked it, who didn't, pros / cons, blah, blah but all comes down to this ... it WAS and IS a remarkable S&W original concept.
It is apparent to look at it, the 39 borrowed heavily from both the Walther P-38 (not P-08, thank you Brad), the Browning 1911 (thank you Brad) and Browning High Power. In fact, the 39 safety and decocker is justly named a "Walther's safety" while truly not a "decocker" in the European sense.
The very many engineering changes or subtle revisions within a certain model semi-automatic (without a DASH designation) is what makes collecting S&W semi-autos even more attractive.
To identify and determine these subtle changes is more a "subculture" among S&W semi-auto collectors. We can get sort of finicky about these subtle changes as well.
S&WCA member Richard McMillan was one of first serious 39 (and other S&W semi-auto) collectors authoring a few article in the S&W Journal. In the past he has been very kind to me in helping with specific production data and these sub-culture" revisions, changes and anomalies to sending me photocopies of magazine articles and dealer notes (pre-internet days).
S&W 39/59 magazine types, revisions and other oddities have also become a sub-culture of collecting from the different followers right on down to the lazy ampersand, long tongue (in different lengths), stamped "A", followers, welds types and variances, military types, etc.
Welcome to the 39-culture (or sub-culture). Jump right in. R.S. "Sal" Raimondi
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