The unavoidable gun fight. Are you confident with your handgun choice?

[smithman 10]

You know I was just thinking about dropping by my local pawnshop, where the owner and I usually talk about investment opportunities and trade stock tips, etc.

When I do drop in I am always armed with a .38 J-frame and a folding knife but then that is always the case everywhere I go except where prohibited by law.

Of course I could strap on my hi-cap 9mm semi-auto for the trip but the darn thing is too heavy and a heckuva lot harder to conceal. And I've put way more rounds through J-frames than all the semi-autos I've ever owned.

To be honest, I have not given a lot of thought to whatever danger I put myself in when visiting the local pawn shop. Or gun shop. It's just something I've been doing for the last 40 years or so.

Without incident I might add. So far.

For me this post is a very useful reminder to not let my situational awareness lapse, wherever I may find myself.

Thank you Dump 1567.

 

[Greyman50]

I deal with 3 or 4 pawn shops. 1 is close and have known the owner for 20 years. He and his co owner are armed and little chance of 1 person taking them out due to layout. The other shops are up the road and have 3-4 armed guys running them so seriously doubt there would be any trouble. Other shops I usually drive by as they are in really bad parts of town(s).

 

[GregVS]

This is an incident that happened in a Pawn Shop I was in a few weeks ago. It just as likely could have happened at any store you entered. There's only one way out. Take out the shooter or die. Are you confident and proficient with your carry choice to get out alive?

To give a summary based on the article, it sounds like the shooter entered the pawn shop & fired a round into the air. The armed clerk working the counter grabbed his gun to engage the shooter and was killed. Some shopper who was in the store hiding after the shooting started was shot in the head as the shooter left with some stolen guns. The shooter and getaway driver were later arrested and charged with murder.

New details about moments before, after deadly shooting at Tucson pawn shop

As I mentioned, I was in this Pawn shop a few weeks ago looking at guns. It isn't in the nicest area, but most Pawn shops aren't. And Pawn shops in my area, do have some good deals on used handguns. But this could have happened in any business. When you come through the door of this place, to the left is the gun counter. So, this is going to put you in the corner of the store and your back to the door. You probably wouldn't know what was happening until you heard a shot and turned around. I don't know if anyone else was in this shop during the shooting, but it doesn't sound like it. Every time I've been there, they've had at least two people working. Maybe someone went to lunch?

This is one of those situations where you can't avoid a gun fight. Do nothing, and you're still shot in the head. Sure, stay out of bad neighborhoods and pawn shops. But as I stated, this could have happened in any store. The chances of this situation are slim, but I missed it by a few weeks, so you never know. And this is why we carry.

And now it comes down to your carry choice. I know a lot of people like their small low cap pocket carry guns. But if you were in this situation, do you feel confident and proficient with your choice of carry gun? Situations like this really make you think and evaluate your carry choice, training, mindset, & tactics.

See my posting in: re: Anyone Using a Glock with a Manual Safety? about a friend getting shot and his mother killed in a Phoenix gunfight just last week. Dwayne is proficient in firearms and I was really surprised he woke up and investigated w/o arming himself.

BTW: I'm VERY confidant with my EDC (Sig P-365) and nightstand guns (SA XDM 45 acp), as well as my wife's Glock G-43 and Sig P-365.

 

[rockquarry]

I most frequently carry a glock 19 and two reloads. I chose that because it's the same gun I carried at work.

I carry it because that's what I already have set up. I carry it with no expectation that I'm ever going to need the second and certainly not the third magazine.

As I said that's what I carry because that's what I had set up.

View attachment 770694
At the end of next month when I live here I fully intend to carry the exact same thing

Is that reasonable?

If it's not reasonable in your opinion what is?
View attachment 770696

What can I carry that would meet your approval?

View attachment 770697

Relax. No argument from me; sounds as if you know what you're doing. I did my best to explain reasonable preparedness but I think we all know what it is.

 

[Smoke]

Relax. No argument from me; sounds as if you know what you're doing. I did my best to explain reasonable preparedness but I think we all know what it is.

This is my opinion and I'm not trying to extend the (for lack of a better term) argument.

Reasonable is an incredibly subjective word.

There are people on this forum who carry a J frame with six rounds and maybe a speed strip that think a Glock 19 and two reloads is unreasonably excessive.

I doubt very seriously that you pay a whole lot of attention to what I post but I frequently talk about how I don't top off my magazines when I load my pistol. I put 15 rounds in my glock magazine load the magazine into the gun chamber a round and go about my business.

I don't think the effort of dropping the magazine and putting another round in it and putting it back in the gun is worthwhile.

I've had people on this and other forums tell me that I'm going to be KILT in the streets for lack of that one bullet.

They think I'm unreasonable for not taking the extra 10 seconds.

There are people in my life who think the very fact that I carry a firearm at all is unreasonable and it makes me insane

So no, I can't say that "We all know what reasonable means".

 

[SFury79]

I don't carry for a gun battle. Just to get out of where I shouldn't be. I call the guys that train and are equipped to do it. They have friends who will join them.

Sometimes the fight finds us. Either you can try and fight to live, or get killed like the customer did. If I end up in a similar situation I hope I can fight and live.

My $.02, no one else's money or stuff is worth me getting in a gun fight, to include an ambulance or narcs or anything else. Shoes I can run in and the ability to say "we're cool bro" go a lot farther than anything else.

How did that flawed thinking work out for the customer? Oh, he's dead... Which would have been your fate.

 

[Brush2000]

I think this conversation has gotten a little out of hand. At the end of the day I think we would all fight for our lives some of us may view other options before hand some may jump to the rescue without a second thought the focus needs to remain training is what's important not the tool at hand

 

[fiasconva]

In the situation described I am confident in my choice IF I get the chance to use it.

 

[Model29-26.5]

Everyone only imagines what they would actually do unless they have been there.
I have not and hope I never do.
Hope the perpetrator gets life or death.
It'll be interesting to see his prior record and judgements on previous offences which I'm assuming there are many.

 

[rockquarry]

This is my opinion and I'm not trying to start her extend the (for lack of a better term) argument.

Reasonable is an incredibly subjective word.

There are people on this forum who carry a J frame with six rounds and maybe a speed strip that think a Glock 19 and two reloads is unreasonably excessive.

I doubt very seriously that you pay a whole lot of attention to what I post but I frequently talk about how I don't top off my magazines when I load my pistol. I put 15 rounds in my glock magazine load the magazine into the gun chamber around and go about my business.

I don't think the effort of dropping the magazine and putting another round in it and putting it back in the gun is worthwhile.

I've had people on this and other forums tell me that I'm going to be KILT in the
streets for lack of that one bullet.

They think I'm unreasonable for not taking the extra 10 seconds.

Her people in my life who thinks it's a very fact that I carry a firearm at all is unreasonable and it makes me insane

So no, I can't say that "We all know what reasonable means".

I've done my best, but this is not my whole life. You win through attrition.

 

[Rocketmedic40]

Sometimes the fight finds us. Either you can try and fight to live, or get killed like the customer did. If I end up in a similar situation I hope I can fight and live.


How did that flawed thinking work out for the customer? Oh, he's dead... Which would have been your fate.

Jeez, Rambo, I ain't saying go meekly into the dark night, I'm pointing out that E&E + shoot if they come at you is the best answer. My comment was mostly directed at the young man working at a drug-troubled KFC…nothing worth shooting someone over in that context except yourself.

 

[Brush2000]

Jeez, Rambo, I ain't saying go meekly into the dark night, I'm pointing out that E&E + shoot if they come at you is the best answer. My comment was mostly directed at the young man working at a drug-troubled KFC…nothing worth shooting someone over in that context except yourself.

Are you suggesting I shoot myself because I work at a KFC in a drug troubled town or am I reading ya wrong? EMT school is around the corner or is that not good enough for you either I'd think as a prior medic you would have a little more respect for someone with similar ambitions. Might not be the best job but the last thing I'll do is sit around without new SW Money!

 

[Rocketmedic40]

Are you suggesting I shoot myself because I work at a KFC in a drug troubled town or am I reading ya wrong? EMT school is around the corner or is that not good enough for you either I'd think as a prior medic you would have a little more respect for someone with similar ambitions. Might not be the best job but the last thing I'll do is sit around without new SW Money!

EDC and carry are intelligent choices, but should always be viewed through the lens of problem avoidance and de-escalation whenever possible. I am telling you now that as an EMS professional there isn't a whole lot of room for carry or escalation in our line of work; the attitude your posts puts off will get you fired quickly.

 

[Brush2000]

EDC and carry are intelligent choices, but should always be viewed through the lens of problem avoidance and de-escalation whenever possible. I am telling you now that as an EMS professional there isn't a whole lot of room for carry or escalation in our line of work; the attitude your posts puts off will get you fired quickly.

sounds like you got life figured out! I never thought being an EMT was about carry or escalation. Everything edc is "mission specific" I'm not arguing that point. Obviously as a medical professional one has to practice carful deep concealment and de-escalation skills. At the end of the day I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6 in the event my de-escalation skills are not working. In any workplace I've worked at since 18 I've carried concealed without ever being acknowledged never sharing my secrets. This is a public forum where I will talk differently than my workplace I will share details about my edc. As far as firehouse humor/ trash talk goes I love it grew up around it my whole life. Your comment was not takin as such it was takin as a jab to someone doing their best. I apologize if this was not your intention

 

[balin]

I am more confident with my weapon then my skills under that sort of pressure. As the weapon has been tested but i have not.

 

[Bald1]

Are you suggesting I shoot myself because I work at a KFC in a drug troubled town or am I reading ya wrong? EMT school is around the corner or is that not good enough for you either I'd think as a prior medic you would have a little more respect for someone with similar ambitions. Might not be the best job but the last thing I'll do is sit around without new SW Money!

No he was not. He was saying theres nothing in the KFC worth shooting someone else over. Except you. Meaning your personal safety. Shoot to defend yourself. Not the cash register.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

This is what I know.

The situation is unlikely but possible. I can't spend all of my thoughts on such a subject nor will I ever dwell on it. My guns work reliably. I hope that I will, as well, but as balin said, the guns have been tested, I have not. Will my five rounds in my J-frame save the day? I have no idea. But if I am given the time we will find out, of that I have no doubt.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

Me too! I'm More confident of my gun than I am the rest of the situation.
I'll be carrying a Smith, SIG, Glock or Ruger.
They all go Bang!

 

[Brush2000]

No he was not. He was saying theres nothing in the KFC worth shooting someone else over. Except you. Meaning your personal safety. Shoot to defend yourself. Not the cash register.

Thank you for the clarification

 

[steelslaver]

I am confident in my abilities and my choices of weapon. But, sometimes it boils down to how the cards come out of the deck. Lots of very good men have met their end with their gun unfired.

Take the guy at the counter who tried to draw, not many people can beat someone who is very willing to kill, already has gun in hand and finger on the trigger.

Plus, very few people are experienced gunfighters and sometimes experience really counts. NOBODY knows for sure how they will respond until the time comes and even then what may well be the right response in one situation could be wrong in a slightly different on.

IF I had been the customer, would I have survived? I would try. But there are a pile of variables and although having a good gun and knowing how to use it certainly helps, it ain't no guarantee

 

[Phenix]

Violent criminals, doing what violent criminals do.

The customer in the store who tried to conceal himself was apparently shot at extremely close range. The news articles I saw didn't indicate whether the deceased customer was armed (it's AZ, right?), but it would seem not?

UPDATE: Suspects in pawn shop shooting found via GPS in Phoenix area

One is dead and another has life-threatening injuries following a shooting at a Northside pawn shop.

www.kgun9.com

2 innocents dead from GSW's at the hands of criminals.

The store manager heard the gunfire and went out to his car to retrieve a gun. Guess he didn't keep one in his office, or wear one.

In answer to the OP's question, yes, I'm confident in the functionality of the retirement weapons I carry. If I wasn't I wouldn't carry them. Size, caliber and capacity of them? Not critical factors to me for their role as retirement concealed weapons. Might be for some other folks, though. It is what it is. Neither capacity nor caliber are really suitable substitutions for mindset and skillset when chaos erupts, but that's just my personal opinion.

Then, of course, there's the ability to make good decisions and exercise good judgment when everything around you has gone to hell. It's not the gun that may save you. It's what you are able and willing to do with it that may save you.

Today my choice of a retirement/LEOSA weapon is a J-frame. Specifically, one of my M&P 340's. It's the first one I bought, back in '05 (from the first production run, I was told by the factory). It's been used as an armorer 'practice' gun after my armorer class, and a range beater as well as an off-duty and later retirement weapon. It's seen a few cases of ammunition fired through it for range work (drills, quals, etc). A couple hundred Magnum rounds, but primarily +P and some occasional standard pressure Ball loads (if available in the range inventory). I carry +P in it.

If Vejar had even been armed with a pocket pistol he might still be alive.
Why won't more ordinary people carry carry guns.
Wonder if Vejar was an illegal who was following the law prohibiting him from having a gun?

 

[Countrycuz]

I'm sorry, the chance of this happening to me is almost zero. The time I'll take planning for it, almost zero. There are a lot of things that get you.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

When I pulled down on those Texas goats - sneaking me in the dark-
I did draw my 19 and I was ready to shoot.
Drew my 19, turned around and turned on my flashlight.
There they were !
5-6 goofy looking looking Hair Goats.
Did you know that they raise Hair Goats out in West Texas ?

 

[MTK20]

I don't get all these 'are YOU upping your carry??' posts lately - I feel quite fine dealing with meth heads with the same revolver on my hip that's been there for the last decade and don't see that changing unless I somehow become Serpico and need to take on "just a battalion".

Forget the concealed carry situation. Your reference is the most terrifying thing in this thread . Serpico, the man who served, got shot, risked life and limb in his service and then after a single one night stand, lost over 90% of his pension that he worked so hard for.

I will definitely take getting shot, please .

Regarding concealed carry and this topic... Again. Sometimes it is what you don't plan for that gets you. In fact, your Serpico reference makes a lot of sense that way. He was well equipped and survived all the bad guys, but who would have known that in the end, his life's work would be taken by his lack of preparation in love, not in war?

 

[Eddie Southgate]

Answer to the original question , Yes . In this situation the counter man would not have needed to depend only on a pocket gun . The other victim I can't say without way more info than what was given here. Was the second victim armed ?

 

[YouveHadYour6]

Forget the concealed carry situation. Your reference is the most terrifying thing in this thread . Serpico, the man who served, got shot, risked life and limb in his service and then after a single one night stand, lost over 90% of his pension that he worked so hard for.

I will definitely take getting shot, please .

Regarding concealed carry and this topic... Again. Sometimes it is what you don't plan for that gets you. In fact, your Serpico reference makes a lot of sense that way. He was well equipped and survived all the bad guys, but who would have known that in the end, his life's work would be taken by his lack of preparation in love, not in war?

Yep - or to use another movie reference while still back to self defense, as the Duke said in his last, 'The Shootist': "There's always some six-fingered bustard that couldn't hit a cow in the tit with a tin cup. That's the one who usually does you in."

 

[MTK20]

Yep - or to use another movie reference while still back to self defense, as the Duke said in his last, 'The Shootist': "There's always some six-fingered bustard that couldn't hit a cow in the tit with a tin cup. That's the one who usually does you in."

'You can't always count on luck, but luck sure does count!' It just so happens to work that way for the bad guys too .

 

[Smoke]

When I pulled down on those Texas goats - sneaking me in the dark-
I did draw my 19 and I was ready to shoot.
Drew my 19, turned around and turned on my flashlight.
There they were !
5-6 goofy looking looking Hair Goats.
Did you know that they raise Hair Goats out in West Texas ?

I threw down on a cow at work one night

 

[srb10864]

My mentality is different than most of you when I'm out and about. I think like a criminal because that's what I dealt with during my career. I'm ALWAYS aware of my surroundings and will see the criminal before they see me. Therefore I don't worry about being surprised. My ffl pickup spot is a local pawn shop, so I'm always watching the door anyway. I've also been in gunfights, so been there, done that. Shooting somebody that was trying to shoot at me was way easier than anybody led us to believe at the academy. Bottom line guys, if it's them or you dead, you better be cold blooded and make sure it's them.

 

[Taj]

This is an incident that happened in a Pawn Shop I was in a few weeks ago. It just as likely could have happened at any store you entered. There's only one way out. Take out the shooter or die. Are you confident and proficient with your carry choice to get out alive?

To give a summary based on the article, it sounds like the shooter entered the pawn shop & fired a round into the air. The armed clerk working the counter grabbed his gun to engage the shooter and was killed. Some shopper who was in the store hiding after the shooting started was shot in the head as the shooter left with some stolen guns. The shooter and getaway driver were later arrested and charged with murder.

New details about moments before, after deadly shooting at Tucson pawn shop

As I mentioned, I was in this Pawn shop a few weeks ago looking at guns. It isn't in the nicest area, but most Pawn shops aren't. And Pawn shops in my area, do have some good deals on used handguns. But this could have happened in any business. When you come through the door of this place, to the left is the gun counter. So, this is going to put you in the corner of the store and your back to the door. You probably wouldn't know what was happening until you heard a shot and turned around. I don't know if anyone else was in this shop during the shooting, but it doesn't sound like it. Every time I've been there, they've had at least two people working. Maybe someone went to lunch?

This is one of those situations where you can't avoid a gun fight. Do nothing, and you're still shot in the head. Sure, stay out of bad neighborhoods and pawn shops. But as I stated, this could have happened in any store. The chances of this situation are slim, but I missed it by a few weeks, so you never know. And this is why we carry.

And now it comes down to your carry choice. I know a lot of people like their small low cap pocket carry guns. But if you were in this situation, do you feel confident and proficient with your choice of carry gun? Situations like this really make you think and evaluate your carry choice, training, mindset, & tactics.

There are times you may not have a choice and the handgun you carry could dictate the outcome. I was involved in an off duty shooting in 1988 with two armed bad guys. My family was with me which made it really bad. I have carried a full sized Gov't model all my life, on and off duty but had recently started carrying a Colts Officer's model off duty. WE were literally cornered and out of options. One bad guy threatened me and told me that after he killed me he was going to shoot my family. He started to pull a long gun out of his car (latter determined to be an SKS. I shot him first and another guy opened up on me with a Browning Hi-Power. I had moved away from my family (still in the car)and was standing literally on a manhole cover in the middle of the street. The guy with the pistol opened up on me (13 empty cases in the street) I ended up hitting him with the next to last round in the pistol. After it was all said and done I went back to carrying a full sized pistol again and a spare mag. At that time if I could have figured out how to carry a shotgun or rifle, I think I would have. Small handguns are great until you really need them.