The Wadcutter for Self-Defense: Over-hyped or not?

[hkcavalier]

Firing .38 wadcutters against an AR500 target is pretty instructive. Other than actual frangible bullets I’ve never had anything self destruct so completely. The comment about them looking like misshapen quarters is pretty spot on. Very soft and very slow kind of goes against all ballistic knowledge we’ve accumulated over the centuries.

I do have some of those Underwood .44 Magnum full wadcutter loads and have been meaning to try them out. 200gr coated bullet and harder than a true target load. They market it for 2 and 4 legged critters. I have a soft spot for .44 Magnum factory loads that aren’t just going for 240@1200 like everyone else.

 

[OldSmithCollector]

I didnt know they had 44 mag wadcutters... I'd like to see some tests with that

I am thinking we are not talking about the same rounds a lot of the time. Most people know wadcutters as low velocity, soft lead target rounds.

The ones I use (32 & 38) are rated 900fps and are Hard-Cast, so they dont 'pan-out' or deform like the soft lead ones. They can deform some at the leading edges, but mostly in the tests I have seen they stay like a solid round punch. Sometimes they get a bit of a tumble and that makes a real mess in the gel, but its rare, when they hit the clothes/bone overlay in some special way kinda funny


And here is an interesting article I have saved that discusses wadcutters, I am guessing was written before the BBWC's came out. Ed Harris: Revisiting The Full Charge Wadcutter. – www.GrantCunningham.com

 

[colt_saa]

I didnt know they had 44 mag wadcutters...

Molds for wad-cutters and hollow base wad-cutters in .411", .432" & .453" have been available to those of us that cast for many, Many years from several manufacturers.

There are even old molds in .455", .500" and other diameters

I can not recall how long I have had the HBWC mold for my 41 Magnums (at least a decade now). My mold has interchangeable pins so that I can drop 194 grain HBWCs or 225 grain solid WCs. My mold drops 4 projectiles at a time, of any combination depending on the pins I use. Though I usually keep them all the same since I use a softer alloy for HBWCs and go hard cast on the solids so I can run them at greater velocities

Here are drawings of the four calibers that MP Molds produces

44 hbwc vs. water jugs.wmv - YouTube

Not the best of videos, but it is the only one I had in my notes

 

[rockquarry]

I didnt know they had 44 mag wadcutters... I'd like to see some tests with that

I am thinking we are not talking about the same rounds a lot of the time. Most people know wadcutters as low velocity, soft lead target rounds.

The ones I use (32 & 38) are rated 900fps and are Hard-Cast, so they dont 'pan-out' or deform like the soft lead ones. They can deform some at the leading edges, but mostly in the tests I have seen they stay like a solid round punch. Sometimes they get a bit of a tumble and that makes a real mess in the gel, but its rare, when they hit the clothes/bone overlay in some special way kinda funny


And here is an interesting article I have saved that discusses wadcutters, I am guessing was written before the BBWC's came out. Ed Harris: Revisiting The Full Charge Wadcutter. – www.GrantCunningham.com

While we may not agree with everything C.E. "Ed" Harris states, he is among the most knowledgeable of true cast bullet experts (not the self-proclaimed YouTube kind) and anything he writes is worth reading. Harris was a former AMERICAN RIFLEMAN writer and technical staff member (when AR had such a staff). Much of his wisdom and advice comes from bona-fide testing that required lots of shooting effort and time. He was also a Ruger employee. I think he's pretty well retired from writing these days but you'll find very few with the cast bullet background and credentials that Harris has.

 

[chief38]

At the velocities that Remington loads their 148 grain Wad Cutters it would certainly NOT be my first, second or third choice for SD/HD! IMHO they are excellent for paper targets but that is where it ends.

 

[loc n load]

Wadcutters

If we are restricting our discussion to factory loaded 148 gr swaged HB wadcutters out of a 2” bl., I would not carry that load for SD. It is a great target load & that is it’s intended purpose.
If you wanted to expand the discussion to hard cast wadcutters, then my answer is going to be different.
I cast 38’s,41’s,44’s & 45 wadcutters in weights ranging from 146 gr to 283 gr. These bullets can be seated out and driven to much faster velocities than the swaged bullets.
I carry these bullets in my short barrel big bore revolvers for SD and have the utmost confidence in them.

 

[John Patrick]

32 S&W Long shooting Magtech 98gr wadcutters with a listed velocity of 682fps out of a 4" barrel produced an average of 13.7" of penetration in Lucky Gunner's gel tests from a 2" barrel, and an average of 14.4" out of a 4" barrel.

All American manufactured target 38spl wadcutter ammo appears to meet or exceed the Magtech 32 Long wadcutter velocity, so I would expect pretty similar or slightly better penetration.

Fwiw, I have Buffalo Bore hard cast 32 Long wadcutters in case I ever carry my 32 Long, and I also have Buffalo Bore standard pressure hard cast 38spl loads on hand for the couple of non +P rated 38spls I have.

 

[Well Armed]

I know I am resurrecting an older thread, but I don't want to start a newer one. I think it's best to pick back up where this one left off with all the points and options that were already stated...My question is, why do some in this thread believe 148-150 gr wadcutters would be underpowered?

1. Buffoon Bore, Underwood, and others make hard LSWC that will penetrate heavy auto glass and other intermediate objects and still bore a straight line right through bone into the target.
2. It's generally not affected by heavy clothing like JHP.
3. It won't deflect or ricochet when hitting like round FMJ.
4. There will be no jacket separation like with non-bonded flat FMJ.
5. It's not dependent on velocity like JHP.
6. It's typically much cheaper than defensive bonded JHP.
7. The recoil is typically much more manageable especially when being fired from lightweight revolvers.
8. They will perform better and be more favorable than an unexpanded JHP, which is something that I've seen happen a lot in ballistic testing.
9. It performs great out of 2" or less barrels...

It seems that many here act as if LSWC is so underpowered that they will just bounce off bone or something. What am I missing?

 

[OldSmithCollector]

I think it is a combination of cognitive dissonance and information bias. We all do it. The rest is probably just miscommunication.
For how long was it true that 32 was greatly underpowered, and really no one talked much about the difference in bullet shape/design. There is so much research and information and testing being done in the last 20 years that new information is coming out and new things are available, like 1500fps 32WC, and being able to better see/understand wound paths and ancillary shock effects of different slugs,... but then you say "32 isn't that bad" and one person thinks your talking about the old anemic 32 and another just cant believe it because for so long the opposite was a true and accepted fact.

Here is a nerds perspective:
- Everything about shooting is just throwing rocks, something man has been doing forever. We just figure out easier, more accurate and better ways to throw objects. We can change the weight, speed and delivery system, and thats about it, the rest is dictated by physics. As we change the weight and speed, the physics changes. It takes our slow-to-adapt brains a bit to accept the new changes.

I land speed race, and its amazing to note that A LOT of people are knowledgeable about cars and drag racing or track racing, but when we get to talking about land speed racing it becomes difficult because the physics of what is happening to a car change over 200mph and start doing things you don't encounter under 200mph. Something similar I think happens with these new tweaks in technology and new research, where it takes a bit to adjust our thinking to allow for the new information.

I am a 'bigger-is-better' guy, with bullets and engines, always have been, so I have also been slow to adapt that there are other ways to look at it. A friend of mine is serious into air rifles, and its amazing to me to watch people hunt and kill moose with a small bullet from a silent air rifle. That wouldnt be my go-to. But if you push it fast enough, you dont need the mass. Thats one way to do it.

There is no one 'right' or perfect round, its a little variable. 32 can work, and 38 can work, and 357 can work, depending on all of the circumstances. some work in more cases than others. I still carry a 38spl mostly, but I love the 32's and always have one at least as a backup, and its also whats best for my wife because she isnt scared of it.

I'm glad new attention is being paid to it, am looking forward to new ammo and research.

 

[biku324]

Effectiveness of 38 wadcutters seems speculative. I can't find analysis of actual use, but maybe I'm not looking in the right places.

Full disclosure - I carry standard velocity 225 grain Buffalo Bore 45 Auto Rim hard cast wadcutters in my 625-8 (with 230 FMJ FP as extra ammo). Also speculative.

 

[Well Armed]

Effectiveness of 38 wadcutters seems speculative. I can't find analysis of actual use, but maybe I'm not looking in the right places.

They seem to penetrate and perform well in the same ballistic testing that's done on more traditional defensive ammo. It seems they were carried and used regularly in a defensive role y L.E. at one point. There have been many people, including the owner of Buffalo Bore (Tim Sundles carries his .38 wadcutters in a S&W 340), who carries .38 +p wadcutter and have killed many medium to small sized game with it. Why would it be speculative with .38 and not other calibers? What have you heard?

 

[biku324]

I have seen no data on use of wadcutters against human beings - not situational analysis, not wound analysis. I am aware that Deming Police Officer Royce Bennett shot at Billy Ray Gibson in 1979 with a mix of 38 hollowpoints and wadcutters but none of those rounds penetrated Gibson's pickup door. Gibson killed Bennett with one shot from a 45-70.

There is extensive data on such for 9mm, 38 Spl LHP and JHP, 357 Magnum, 40 S&W, 44 Magnum, and 45 ACP rounds.

 

[OldSmithCollector]

WC's were not commonly carried and used in SD so I agree that most information is mostly anecdotal and not really scientifically studied. Now we are starting to get ballistic testing and such, but thats still a little different from real world data in volume, which wont be available unless people started carrying it en masse.

A similar thing happened between 44 magnum & 357 down here in the Houston Police Dept around the 70's or early 80's,

 

[Rule3]

A lot depends on the hardness of the lead and shot placement.

How many LE agencies and Military carry wadcutters??

They are designed for perfect holes in paper targets.

 

[50 target]

Lots of good info. No guarantees no matter the gun or ammo. Too much dynamics. Only real world knowledge I have is as a Reserve Deputy and a robbery & homicide at a convenience store late at night. Robber-murderer borrowed a Colt Detective Special in 38 Spl and loaded with wadcutters. Shot the male owner twice and died on the spot. Both bullets complete penetration and recovered both bullets, one off the floor and the other off the counter.victim deceased, shooter caught, tried, convicted znd Jared for life. Never heard any discussion about what would have been a better round.

 

[Telecaster]

Gun Sam shoots wadcutters that barely penetrate a winter coat:

Heavy Clothing Stops .38 Wadcutter?!? Unbelievable Results .38 Special LRN VS Wadcutter from Snub

 

[GnarlsR2]

Why not just buy defense ammo that has proven testing supplied by a very reputable manufacturer?

 

[biku324]

Lots of good info. No guarantees no matter the gun or ammo. Too much dynamics. Only real world knowledge I have is as a Reserve Deputy and a robbery & homicide at a convenience store late at night. Robber-murderer borrowed a Colt Detective Special in 38 Spl and loaded with wadcutters. Shot the male owner twice and died on the spot. Both bullets complete penetration and recovered both bullets, one off the floor and the other off the counter.victim deceased, shooter caught, tried, convicted znd Jared for life. Never heard any discussion about what would have been a better round.

We used to kill hogs with 22 shorts before butchering.

 

[Valmet]

I try not to overthink it. I carry Double Tap 148-gr WC on the occasion that I’m carrying one of my Airweights. Is there a better load out there? Probably, but for my money and skill level with that load, I’ll take it.

 

[Well Armed]

Why not just buy defense ammo that has proven testing supplied by a very reputable manufacturer?

Because the JHP marketed defensive ammo that most have been indoctrinated into isn't always the best or only option especially out of a small lightweight sub revolver.