The Wadcutter for Self-Defense: Over-hyped or not?

[Well Armed]

Effectiveness of 38 wadcutters seems speculative. I can't find analysis of actual use, but maybe I'm not looking in the right places.

They seem to penetrate and perform well in the same ballistic testing that's done on more traditional defensive ammo. It seems they were carried and used regularly in a defensive role y L.E. at one point. There have been many people, including the owner of Buffalo Bore (Tim Sundles carries his .38 wadcutters in a S&W 340), who carries .38 +p wadcutter and have killed many medium to small sized game with it. Why would it be speculative with .38 and not other calibers? What have you heard?

 

[biku324]

I have seen no data on use of wadcutters against human beings - not situational analysis, not wound analysis. I am aware that Deming Police Officer Royce Bennett shot at Billy Ray Gibson in 1979 with a mix of 38 hollowpoints and wadcutters but none of those rounds penetrated Gibson's pickup door. Gibson killed Bennett with one shot from a 45-70.

There is extensive data on such for 9mm, 38 Spl LHP and JHP, 357 Magnum, 40 S&W, 44 Magnum, and 45 ACP rounds.

 

[OldSmithCollector]

WC's were not commonly carried and used in SD so I agree that most information is mostly anecdotal and not really scientifically studied. Now we are starting to get ballistic testing and such, but thats still a little different from real world data in volume, which wont be available unless people started carrying it en masse.

A similar thing happened between 44 magnum & 357 down here in the Houston Police Dept around the 70's or early 80's,

 

[Rule3]

A lot depends on the hardness of the lead and shot placement.

How many LE agencies and Military carry wadcutters??

They are designed for perfect holes in paper targets.

 

[50 target]

Lots of good info. No guarantees no matter the gun or ammo. Too much dynamics. Only real world knowledge I have is as a Reserve Deputy and a robbery & homicide at a convenience store late at night. Robber-murderer borrowed a Colt Detective Special in 38 Spl and loaded with wadcutters. Shot the male owner twice and died on the spot. Both bullets complete penetration and recovered both bullets, one off the floor and the other off the counter.victim deceased, shooter caught, tried, convicted znd Jared for life. Never heard any discussion about what would have been a better round.

 

[Telecaster]

Gun Sam shoots wadcutters that barely penetrate a winter coat:

Heavy Clothing Stops .38 Wadcutter?!? Unbelievable Results .38 Special LRN VS Wadcutter from Snub

 

[GnarlsR2]

Why not just buy defense ammo that has proven testing supplied by a very reputable manufacturer?

 

[biku324]

Lots of good info. No guarantees no matter the gun or ammo. Too much dynamics. Only real world knowledge I have is as a Reserve Deputy and a robbery & homicide at a convenience store late at night. Robber-murderer borrowed a Colt Detective Special in 38 Spl and loaded with wadcutters. Shot the male owner twice and died on the spot. Both bullets complete penetration and recovered both bullets, one off the floor and the other off the counter.victim deceased, shooter caught, tried, convicted znd Jared for life. Never heard any discussion about what would have been a better round.

We used to kill hogs with 22 shorts before butchering.

 

[Valmet]

I try not to overthink it. I carry Double Tap 148-gr WC on the occasion that I'm carrying one of my Airweights. Is there a better load out there? Probably, but for my money and skill level with that load, I'll take it.

 

[Well Armed]

Why not just buy defense ammo that has proven testing supplied by a very reputable manufacturer?

Because the JHP marketed defensive ammo that most have been indoctrinated into isn't always the best or only option especially out of a small lightweight sub revolver.

 

[gym cat]

Just to add -- Shot placement is everything!!!! Just go to your local range and observe. Sometimes I think it safer "Down Range". just sayin"

 

[Drm50]

I shot a deer with a 242gr Button Nose WC at about 30yds. I picked up wrong ammo. Model 25-5 was tuned for 250RNFP cast. At 30yds made little difference. Classic through and through but I must say dropped its blood pressure immediately. 150lb doe took 3 big bounds head on into a woven wire fence and collapsed. MV was about 800fps and I think it did better job of killing than traditional 250gr RNFP or RN.
Probably not as good as some type of expanding bullet, but better than traditional styles at short range.

 

[rwsmith]

Lately, it seems, that there is quite a bit of interest and perhaps uproar about the wadcutter bullet as a viable self-defense option for the short-barreled snub nose revolver. To some, they might argue that no modern JHP bullet load is capable of providing a reasonable balance of adequate penetration and expansion. Others might argue that it's a worthless option and has no real-world application to this date.

My question is ...

Is the "Wadcutter" viable for self-defense out of a short-barreled snub nose revolver? Meaning out a sub 2" barrel such as the S&W J Frame. Feel free to express your reasons for or against.

I would say that wadcutters are a viable self defense option but that statement about "no modern JHP bullet load is capable of providing a reasonable balance of adequate penetration and expansion" is categorically false.

 

[eb07]

Lately, it seems, that there is quite a bit of interest and perhaps uproar about the wadcutter bullet as a viable self-defense option for the short-barreled snub nose revolver. To some, they might argue that no modern JHP bullet load is capable of providing a reasonable balance of adequate penetration and expansion. Others might argue that it's a worthless option and has no real-world application to this date.

My question is ...

Is the "Wadcutter" viable for self-defense out of a short-barreled snub nose revolver? Meaning out a sub 2" barrel such as the S&W J Frame. Feel free to express your reasons for or against.

Lately? Jim Cirillo and Bill Allard figured that out back in the late 60's early 70's using real bad guys as his experience to come to that conclusion. The human body hasn't changed much since then. Of course jhp wasn't developed they way they have been now and NYPD has had great success with the 135gr speer gold dots.

So yeah, based upon the experience of real world gunfighters I am FOR.

 

[Brian Parrish]

Zombie?

I love the resurrected threads, and I always say, "How did I miss this?"
I have seen so much on this because it keeps coming up as I keep reading since about 1986 or so.

FBI ballistic testing?
Marshall & Sanow and the "one-shot stop"?
"As long as it starts with a 4!" and the caliber arguments?
9mm vs. 45?
Revolver vs. auto?

The reason we never get an answer is because this is simply not the answer.
I do use the 158 grain SWC in my j frame.

 

[Neumann]

A wadcutter might save your life, but put you in prison. Lawyers will seize on any weapon or ammunition that departs from "normal" practice as intent to kill, then proceed to define what constitutes "normal" practice. Personally, I stick with commercial HP, Gummy Tip (less pocket lint), or hardball ammunition for EDC. Hand loads of any sort would be a red flag in court.

 

[moosedog]

The reverse wadcutter concept has been around since I started reloading
in the early 1970s. Even tried them myself. They expand TOO quickly.

In 32 years of LE I have never seen of or heard of a case of a lawyer seizing on ammo type used in a self-defense shooting.

 

[Borderboss]

In 32 years of LE I have never seen of or heard of a case of a lawyer seizing on ammo type used in a self-defense shooting.

Exactly. It's a frequently repeated misconception that dates back to Massad Ayoob. He claims it, yet never quotes a situation where it occurred.

 

[biku324]

In 32 years of LE I have never seen of or heard of a case of a lawyer seizing on ammo type used in a self-defense shooting.

In depositions for our officer-involved shootings, it was fairly routine for plaintiff's attorneys to ask if the officer(s) were using departmentally-approved ammunition, but that question was always a throwaway for our agency - we only allowed certain ammo and could prove routine qualifications and inspections. The shooting report always listed which ammo was used as well. No biggie.

 

[dben002]

good or bad for self defense ?? I personally don't want to get shot with one....just saying....

 

[Matt_X]

Exactly. It's a frequently repeated misconception that dates back to Massad Ayoob. He claims it, yet never quotes a situation where it occurred.

Actually he has. IIRC there have been examples posted in this very forum. However none that I can recall really relate to the question in this thread.

Is the "Wadcutter" viable for self-defense out of a short-barreled snub nose revolver? Meaning out a sub 2" barrel such as the S&W J Frame. Feel free to express your reasons for or against.

My .02 is that this has been answered to some extent.

A. Is it viable? Sure. Its a bullet moving at leat 500 fps

B. Is it a great choice? The proposition is too sweeping. It depends on the composition of the wadcutter and how the cartridge is loaded. Using a wadcutter intended for match competition compared with a wadcutter intended for self defence is going to produce different results. etc etc.

 

[Frailer]

My question is ...

Is the "Wadcutter" viable for self-defense out of a short-barreled snub nose revolver? Meaning out a sub 2" barrel such as the S&W J Frame. Feel free to express your reasons for or against.

As a preamble, I'd contend that most handgun rounds touted as ideal choices for personal defense are "overhyped."

As a wise man said many years ago, "all pistol rounds suck." Putting aside rounds like the .454 Casull and its more potent kin, which behave like rifle cartridges, handgun rounds "work" solely by punching holes. They "stop" an assailant by punching a hole in something of vital importance (such as the central nervous system) or by motivating the assailant to radically change their behavior to avoid being shot again.

The main advantages of a wadcutter are that they tend to be accurate (and "shoot to the sights"), have relatively mild recoil, and leave a full-caliber hole. The main disadvantage is that they do not expand.

I would have no problem carrying wadcutters; in fact, that was what I selected for my elder daughter when she wanted a self-defense firearm. She shoots them well, and the recoil isn't punishing for her.

For my part, I still have an acceptable supply of Speer 135gr +P GDHPs, and I can shoot them accurately, so that's what I carry. When I run out I may well switch to a WC or SWC load.

I say all that to say this: I really don't think which round one chooses to carry is remotely as important as practicing regularly to ensure you can put the chosen round where it needs to go when it needs to go there.

 

[Kinman]

Back in the 70's I spent a day shooting with Fairchild AFB's security detail. At the end of the day in appreciation for my assistance their head honcho handed me a coffee can full of ammo. He said that he was told I shot .38 special and he thought I might like to try these out. He told me they were what they carried in their service weapons. Inside was a note saying what the load was, from memory it was something on the order of 3.8gr. of Red Dot under a 148gr. HBWC. I was shooting a Colt Officer's Match Special 38 at the time and was impressed with the accuracy. I often wondered why the AP's at Fairchild would use a load like this when they could use anything, accuracy may have something to do with it. I've always been a believer in shot placement. From memory I can't remember what firearm the off duty Airman used when he ended a stand off at the Fairchild Hospital with one shot from over 100yds. After spending a day with them using British L1A1's at 600yds I knew those boys could shoot.

 

[Echo40]

I think that people spend way too much time pondering over such things and would be better served just carrying whatever they can shoot with the higher proficiency, calling off their search for the illusive ideal self-defense cartridge.

Frankly, the more I've seen, the less enamored I have become by all of the latest whiz-bang self-defense ammunition because regardless of whether somebody digs the bullets out of gel or meat, more often than not, it either opens up to quickly and doesn't penetrate very deeply or completely fails to expand and zips right through tissue leaving behind an itty bitty little hole.
Meanwhile, I've seen flat-nosed FMJs and wadcutters penetrate well and leave behind consistent wound channels, so I'm no longer convinced that JHPs are much better out of a handgun than FMJs or SWCs.

 

[rockquarry]

I think that people spend way too much time pondering over such things and would be better served just carrying whatever they can shoot with the higher proficiency, calling off their search for the illusive ideal self-defense cartridge.

Frankly, the more I've seen, the less enamored I have become by all of the latest whiz-bang self-defense ammunition because regardless of whether somebody digs the bullets out of gel or meat, more often than not, it either opens up to quickly and doesn't penetrate very deeply or completely fails to expand and zips right through tissue leaving behind an itty bitty little hole.
Meanwhile, I've seen flat-nosed FMJs and wadcutters penetrate well and leave behind consistent wound channels, so I'm no longer convinced that JHPs are much better out of a handgun than FMJs or SWCs.

Good post, but some people will quickly flee if approached by logic.

 

[Sgt. Buzzard]

I started carrying for a living in 1973, a S&W mod.10. As backup and off duty a J frame. Spent 18 years as a department and academy FI instructor. I became real confident with the J frame using 148 gr. wadcutters. Bullet placement went where I wanted. 52 years later I'm still practicing/training. My carry load is a hardcast 148 gr. wadcutter. Georgia Arms Ultimate Defense. This load was developed for Airweight snubbies, which perfectly describes my 442.

Over five decades of the same gun, shooting very similar loads has me convinced. You have a different opinion? That's fine. I don't care.

 

[biku324]

I think that people spend way too much time pondering over such things and would be better served just carrying whatever they can shoot with the higher proficiency, calling off their search for the illusive ideal self-defense cartridge.

Frankly, the more I've seen, the less enamored I have become by all of the latest whiz-bang self-defense ammunition because regardless of whether somebody digs the bullets out of gel or meat, more often than not, it either opens up to quickly and doesn't penetrate very deeply or completely fails to expand and zips right through tissue leaving behind an itty bitty little hole.
Meanwhile, I've seen flat-nosed FMJs and wadcutters penetrate well and leave behind consistent wound channels, so I'm no longer convinced that JHPs are much better out of a handgun than FMJs or SWCs.

I used 40 S&W Remington 180 grain FMJ FP my last 3 years on our SRT simply because of reliable penetration. I still use that round or 45 230 FMJ FP in semi-auto EDC, or the Buffalo Bore 225 grain 45 Auto Rim previously pictured in EDC revolver. On horseback, I rely on 357 mag 158 grain SP as it will routinely, humanely put down a badly injured horse. I've had to carry NATO 9mm ball when contracting, but had little confidence in it.

The primary job of a handgun bullet is penetration.

 

[scattershot]

I,think shooters as a group are getting old and tired of the flash and blast of the nitroglycerine loads. That's why .38 wadcutters and 9mm weak loads are gaining popularity. I'm not pointing fingers, I'm 78 and that's my take on it.

 

[rwsmith]

Absolutely...

At the velocities that Remington loads their 148 grain Wad Cutters it would certainly NOT be my first, second or third choice for SD/HD! IMHO they are excellent for paper targets but that is where it ends.

Most BOUGHT WC ammo is for target shooting, with very soft projectiles at target velocities. Will they work for SD? I would not want to get hit with one, but if I were going to use WCs they would have to be a bit harder and a good deal faster. If I couldn't find anything appropriate I'd end up handloading it.

 

[moosedog]

I guess the idea of the largest size hollow point attracts the attention but in reality, the soft lead combined with, and the too big opening creates problems of lack of penetration. Might work on a guy wearing a T-shirt but will start to expand on a heavy jacket or other material. Also, I'd hate to have to try to shoot thru my side window if I was being carjacked. The wadcutter will expand on the glass and be of minimal use on the subject.
If it was a viable option, I would have been adopted many years ago.
Modern ammunition with "controlled expansion design" is the way to go.