Theoretical Shootout Questions

[modraker]

Everyone who carries concealed knows that there's a chance the BG may be armed with a gun. If we are ever in a close proximity shootout of 7 yards or less, is there really time to line up the sights before taking the shot? Short of enrolling at a tactical shooting school, what kind of drill can we do at the range that would enhance our chances of survival?

 

[OKFC05]

Point shooting.
Lots of point shooting.
Point shoot some more. Use a .22 so you don't go broke!

A good .22 and some large plastic jugs on a sand bank will teach you more than anything I can say. A really good point shooter is scary fast and accurate.
But drawing against a person at 7 yds holding a gun and looking at you is an act of desperation, almost suicide. If he is looking and pointing away, maybe.....

 

[modraker]

Thank you OKFC05. Does the very definition of point shooting require that I use my index finger to point rather than to pull the trigger? Is there a modified version that allows one to use his regular trigger finger instead of the middle finger?

 

[OKFC05]

Does the very definition of point shooting require that I use my index finger to point rather than to pull the trigger?

Absolutely not. You use a regular grip, but hold the pistol below your normal sight height and look at the target rather than your front sight.
When you first try it, drop the gun only slightly, and see where your bullet goes. As you get better, you will find your optimum position to see the target clearly and be aware of your gun barrel below your direct line of sight.
The advantage of learning effective point shooting is a person under attack tends to look at the target anyway instead of the front sight.

 

[S&W45Colt]

OKFC05 is giving you excellent advice. I've used point shooting for years and can attest to it working well and being a much quicker way of SD shooting.

 

[snubbyfan]

I know that if I need to pull my snubby to defend myself, I'll be looking at the threat rather than squinting at the tiny little sights.
I set up a pizza box at the range and practice point shooting. Strong side, weak side, two handed, body index and whatever else I can think of. My goal is consistent center of mass shots in double action.

 

[J Rich]

It can be done with practice. I believe you will need the element of surprise as in reaching for your wallet or using a distraction such as moving a person out of the way. I choose to carry concealed all the time and I make my gun easy for me to access. I may have it in my back pocket for the wallet effect you get the idea. I don't care for my only carry piece being on my ankle that is a back up. There is nothing fast and easy to access about that.


Here is a video of Bob Mundon the fastest gun in the world. He does a lot of point shooting from the hip. Now you can't do what he does with a SD so never mind the gun his are well modified. This just gives you the idea of what can be done with practice. If you are only a 1/4 of the speed he is you are still fast.

Remember it's muscle memory. If you practice making your hand point the gun at the target you are looking at from the hip. You can be faster and more accurate than that thug that doesn't practice and has never tried to be accurate with that gun he stole for someone.

Super humans - Bob munden (incredible aim gun) - YouTube

 

[CatSnipah]

And if you do a one-handed quick draw-snap shot, be sure that your off-hand is clear (particularly if you don't carry one in the chamber and have to quickly draw and chamber, or if you have to pull a jacket/shirt/sweater up to access the firearm).

 

[geddylee10002000]

I have to agree with OKFC05 on every level. Last year I attended the intro & advanced Chapman Academy classes. They addressed point shooting and I have practiced it. It simply works if the situation is right. There is a class that I want to take at my club offered by Suarez International on close range gun fighting but will be on vacation. Will take it next year. Suarez has a couple of Youtube videos that are pretty good.

 

[David Armstrong]

First realize that going to the gun is not always the best answer. If the range is close you might be better off using hands and feet instead of trying to execute a draw stroke. Regarding point shooting that is a very broad term that includes a LOT of different concepts. If you can find a good PS trainer they will save you a lot of time. Failing in that the basic concept is either "body index" or 'target focus". Body index focuses on on learning how to position your body so that when you draw to a position the gun will be lined up in a certain manner. This is the traditional Fairbairn and Sykes method that was used by the military, with things like 1/4 hip position, 1/2 hip, point shoulder, and so on. The target focus, which I prefer, incorporates your normal draw but instead of looking at or for the sights you focus on the target and trust your training and subconscious to direct your rounds to the target. I have taught both but strongly prefer the target focus, and find that can hit a 12" plate at 10 yards rather easily using it, even with the gun at waist level.

 

[wtabasco]

This is a great thread, and addresses questions I've had on this subject.

I carry strong side with a shirt covering my gun, if I am walking in the woods or my property I carry the gun in a Galco paddle holster. If am going out, I use an inside the belt holster.

I am going to start practicing drawing from each holster and shooting double taps at the target as quick as I can...until I can hit the target consistently.

I see 7 yards referenced a couple of times in this thread. Is this the best distance to practice from???

 

[S&W45Colt]

This is a great thread, and addresses questions I've had on this subject.

I carry strong side with a shirt covering my gun, if I am walking in the woods or my property I carry the gun in a Galco paddle holster. If am going out, I use an inside the belt holster.

I am going to start practicing drawing from each holster and shooting double taps at the target as quick as I can...until I can hit the target consistently.

I see 7 yards referenced a couple of times in this thread. Is this the best distance to practice from???

The old axiom is the majority of all SD shootings occur with 7 yards.

 

[shouldazagged]

The old axiom is the majority of all SD shootings occur with 7 yards.

The odds are one will occur at much closer range than that. But it's also been calculated that an attacker with a knife can cover 21 feet and start carving you in about a second and a half.

 

[Old cop]

I was involved in a gun battle over 30 yrs. ago as an LEO. My issued weapon was a Colt DS and it was concealed under my jacket (I was a detective). The bad guy (BG) had held up a small market and shot a cop making his getaway. I pinned him in in a parking lot and we shot it out using our cars as cover, the distance was about 3 yds. It was after dark, I could not see my sights and emptied my gun twice before the BG fell mortally wounded. Point shooting works.

In retirement I use a standard paper plate at 3, 5 & 7 yds. Using my J frame I empty the gun as fast as possible, reload using a speed loader (or speed strip) and empty again. As the target moves further away I slow down some, but if all my shots are on the paper plate I consider that a success.

Almost any method I've read here will work w/your chosen weapon but the bottom line is practice often and hope you never have to employ this particular skill set.

 

[murphydog]

I'm going to offer a contrary opinion here, with the understanding I have not been in a gunfight and hope never to be. I think the key to the OP's question is "training". I agree that drawing from 7 yards against someone armed is not ideal, so if this is the question the answer is not point shooting, but training to try to avoid this situation if possible (as in, have your weapon drawn before conflict is imminent). My apologies if this is not what was asked.

The point shooting vs. aimed fire debate has been raging for decades, but the answer is still "training". The amount of time to bring a handgun from hip to eye level is a small fraction of a second; and if that is how you trained to deliver an accurate round, that is what you 'will' do under stress. If you have trained and are proficient in point shooting, this is probably what you will do under the conditions described. Just some food for thought.

 

[revjames]

Point shooting is without a doubt a valuable tool, but might I add that the benefit of a laser is an invaluable resource, particularly while one is learning to effectively point shoot.

 

[MaximumLawman]

As you clear your holster or pants, the first round is fired as the gun is at your waist level. Second round higher up as your gun comes up to eye level. Approximately third and subsequent shots are fired at eye level as you look over your sights or as you use them as necessary. Shouldn't need to use them too much at 7 yards.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Point shooting in self defense depends greatly on the situation. Therefore you must practice point shooting to prepare for those situations.

You would be surprised at how accurate you can be when extending your arm straight towards your target. But that doesn't work nor is it advisable at extreme close range.

Point shooting at extreme close range is an advanced skill that one should seek training for. In all other situations point shooting at a range can be beneficial.

 

[Badkarma 1]

I've gotten to the point that I can drill a target out to 3yds with my model 60 regularly. That said unless your fighting in a phone booth or the attacker is right on top of you, you can still use your gun sights.
But you mentioned the miscreant has the drop on you, in which case you should be getting off the center line. Side step, or move laterally, this makes your assailant have to move his piece, and it gives you time to draw and aim.
At short distances I us my look thru my sights and at the attacker, holding the front blade on his/her chin since in a shoulder point the shots likely to go high.
And if you want, try using a mirror to practice your draw and fire routine...JUST MAKE CERTAIN THE PIECE IS EMPTY!! Point your weapon for the third button on a shirt and squeeze.
Dale

 

[modraker]

There is a video on YouTube, GRAPHIC VIDEO: Shootout Between Miami Police And Growhouse Suspect - YouTube, where the BG had his gun pointed right at the officers and they still drew on him and shot him down. I guess it helps to have a bullet proof vest.