I'm just throwing this out there ... Has nothing to do with ccw. I have been to gun trade shows in Mi. They are selling bullet proof vests. What's up with that ? I don't think I would ever be in the market for one, but what the heck would you do if you bought one ? Would or should you inform your local police department that you own one ? Are they selling them as a defensive purpose ? Anyway. Like i said. Thought it was strange to see. That's my two cents worth.
This is a wierd question ?
- Thread starter WSmith
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You likely saw level 1 vests or military surplus flack jackets.
We used to see them often at gun shows.
Having worked with my grandfather as a teen closing his resturant late at night and cashing out. And later when he owned a liquor store doing the same, I can say carring a BIG bag of cash out to a car late at night and KNOWING people KNOW you are leaving with cash makes one want to have somekind of protection.
I wish my grandfather would have had a vest. Fortunately NOTHING ever happenned. Other than his places being burglarized to steal product.
Owning a bullet-resistant vest would be a good idea for high risk cash only small business owners and firearms instructors who spend a LOT of time teching new gun owners or people who operate firearm ranges.
OR scientists who work at animal test facilities or who do research the wackos think is wrong.
We used to see them often at gun shows.
Having worked with my grandfather as a teen closing his resturant late at night and cashing out. And later when he owned a liquor store doing the same, I can say carring a BIG bag of cash out to a car late at night and KNOWING people KNOW you are leaving with cash makes one want to have somekind of protection.
I wish my grandfather would have had a vest. Fortunately NOTHING ever happenned. Other than his places being burglarized to steal product.
Owning a bullet-resistant vest would be a good idea for high risk cash only small business owners and firearms instructors who spend a LOT of time teching new gun owners or people who operate firearm ranges.
OR scientists who work at animal test facilities or who do research the wackos think is wrong.
PersonalSecurity
Member
Bullet proof vests and flak jackets have their place (such as listed above) but I think the CCW crowd whould be excluded. For one, it sets a bad habit. One should keep the mindset of being offensive once a terrible situation arises.
Good training, a good combat gun, and a fast accessible holster along with some good training willl go much farther. Although, I would never enter a confrontation preparing to be shot. I would much rather do everything to try and shoot first. This includes not being slowed down by a bulky vest.
Just my $0.02. YMMV
Steve
Personal Security Systems Kydex Holsters
Good training, a good combat gun, and a fast accessible holster along with some good training willl go much farther. Although, I would never enter a confrontation preparing to be shot. I would much rather do everything to try and shoot first. This includes not being slowed down by a bulky vest.
Just my $0.02. YMMV
Steve
Personal Security Systems Kydex Holsters
USAF385
US Veteran
IMO if someone is THAT worried about being shot.. they should just stay home.
GatorFarmer
Member
And now for some informed commentary....
I've worn a IIIA vest regularly since 1998. I'm on my second one. I keep one concealable and one set of tac armor with rifle plates around at all times.
Your local PD doesn't care if you have one (I'm from MI, used to be a slumlord). In all states but CT, you can just get one mail order. In CT, you have to get one FTF from your FFL. Don't re-export your rifle plates if you have them. That's it as far as regs. Though if you rob a bank wearing it, you'll get a few extra years.
In temperate climates like the Midwest, eh, not bad at all. You hardly notice a good one after a while. Conceals easily under just a dress shirt if you're fit. If you've got a belly, might be more a problem.
They help save lives in auto accidents too, FWIW.
Tac armor/external wear armor ought be sitting next to your gun at home. The same as you ought have eye protection running a saw, or oven mitts when baking.
I tended to make sure to wear mine to the range. Some training classes actually insist on it.
Don't feel comfortable with it or don't want it? Eh, don't buy it. It's one of those things that if you really need it, then you'll be glad that you had it.
Basic set of Izzy Tac Armor and rifle plates will run you about 750 dollars. A really top notch set of armor... eh, could approach six or seven grand for tac armor, a grand for concealable. Perfectly acceptable concealables? 350 and up.
Flak jackets are old tech. All modern military armor also stops bullets. If you need something to stop frags too, then make sure your armor was tested to the currrent mil standard for fragments.
Keep your blow out kit for treating a GSW, your armor, and your weapon all together where you can get it. Only takes seconds to put on, less time than it takes most people to get a gun out of a safe.
And they aren't bullet proof, only bullet resistant.
I've worn a IIIA vest regularly since 1998. I'm on my second one. I keep one concealable and one set of tac armor with rifle plates around at all times.
Your local PD doesn't care if you have one (I'm from MI, used to be a slumlord). In all states but CT, you can just get one mail order. In CT, you have to get one FTF from your FFL. Don't re-export your rifle plates if you have them. That's it as far as regs. Though if you rob a bank wearing it, you'll get a few extra years.
In temperate climates like the Midwest, eh, not bad at all. You hardly notice a good one after a while. Conceals easily under just a dress shirt if you're fit. If you've got a belly, might be more a problem.
They help save lives in auto accidents too, FWIW.
Tac armor/external wear armor ought be sitting next to your gun at home. The same as you ought have eye protection running a saw, or oven mitts when baking.
I tended to make sure to wear mine to the range. Some training classes actually insist on it.
Don't feel comfortable with it or don't want it? Eh, don't buy it. It's one of those things that if you really need it, then you'll be glad that you had it.
Basic set of Izzy Tac Armor and rifle plates will run you about 750 dollars. A really top notch set of armor... eh, could approach six or seven grand for tac armor, a grand for concealable. Perfectly acceptable concealables? 350 and up.
Flak jackets are old tech. All modern military armor also stops bullets. If you need something to stop frags too, then make sure your armor was tested to the currrent mil standard for fragments.
Keep your blow out kit for treating a GSW, your armor, and your weapon all together where you can get it. Only takes seconds to put on, less time than it takes most people to get a gun out of a safe.
And they aren't bullet proof, only bullet resistant.
I'm not overly worried if an ordinary citizen has one. I can see several occupations or situations where one could have need for one (such as those mentioned above). On the other hand, I am concerned if someone with a dangerous criminal record has one.
Most citizens probably have little knowledge of the realistic limitations and benefits of these bullet resistant vests though and should do some realistic study first before considering laying the dough out for one.
Peace,
Most citizens probably have little knowledge of the realistic limitations and benefits of these bullet resistant vests though and should do some realistic study first before considering laying the dough out for one.
Peace,
PersonalSecurity
Member
As a slumlord, a flak jacket or armor suits your Purpose Of Use. I have seen the dealers at local shows and understand the want to make money - but I don't know that I like the idea of the average CCW (or criminal) wearing a flak jacket. Its probably not necessary and doesn't help us as responsible gun owners - in my opinion.
I do like that they are legal though (or at least the lower level protection). Mostly for situations such as yours. I have been considering a business endeavor for awhile about hiring ex military / LEOs to chauffer VIPs from the many local airports in my area of MI to Detroit. It would essentially be a car service with armed and trained drivers. I have yet to start the business, but I have priced bullet resistant vests should I decide to start it and I am very glad that I am able to obtain them.
I agree with your bug-out set up, especially the med kit. A quick tip I have been told by military friends - put your vest on a chair next to your bed or near your bug out gear. Actually put the vest onto the back of the chair - with the middle of the chair back in the vest. If a situation arises (such as a firefight / mortar strike in the soldiers' experience), you can learn to "dive" into the vest easily. You basically come from the back, lift the vest, and shoot your head up into it. It gets the vest on quickly and lets you move around grabbing gear while strapping / buckling it.
If you've been wearing a vest since '98, I'm sure you have your own little tricks though. I would be interested in hearing them if you ever want to send me a PM or email. And thank you for the opinion of an actual user.
Again, my $0.02.
Steve
Personal Security Systems Kydex Holsters
This does seem like a weird question to me. Why would anyone care if I own or wear body armor? It doesn't endanger anyonone, except me if I have a heat stroke wearing it in the Texas sun. I don't own any, but see no reason why I shouldn't if I wanted to. This is kind of like asking why do the sell midevil chain mail, shields, and helmets, or martial arts parafinalia, Civil war reinactors who own muzzle loaders and model canon, or the guy on the TV who built and was selling functional scaled models of Trebuchet's or........whatever! Because they can, they're not illegal, and there's someone out there who will buy them! Even asking the question, sort of implies the "politically correct" mindset, that I don't like or have need of something, no one else should be allowed to either. This mentality is why we had prohibition, the war on drugs, gun control, smoking banns, evironmental activists, junk-food police, etc....etc....etc.....
GatorFarmer
Member
I'm not a slumlord these days. Now I'm a homemaker. The padding working great when the kids want to play WWE, though that is outside the design intent.
All threat levels are legal for purchase. Some rifle plates are restricted to Mil/LE sales by company policy, not law.
If you're in a bunker in Afghanistan and Uncle Sam buys the armor, and it only has to last one deployment, that works fine. However armor is supposed to be stored flat. Otherwise it can develop creases over time that weaken it. Though the NIJ standards changed fairly recently to reflect better wear resistance.
Vests are not bulky, nor will even tac armor and plates reduce mobility if someone is fit. The general rule is that weight has to exceed 1/3 of body weight before mobility is impaired. (I've seen people do cart wheels wearing full plate armor.)
Generally a vest of the type that is easily worn just stops handgun and some SMG type rounds.
I wore mine all the time, I didn't feel like dying of a terminal case of irony with it at home in the closet, but then I tended to travel with a rough crowd.
Lots of cabbies and limo drivers already wear vests. There's a couple security companies that can provide drivers. If you're equipping a bunch of people, try Galls. Their house brand is okay.
I know I'm going to regret this, but since visits to my personal page have slowed down, what the heck?
Why would anyone who CCWs on a daily basis not want a vest? Or even someone who only carries when they feel a real danger to their safety when they have to engage in a lawful activity that puts them in an uncomfortable situation? Is there a law that doesn't allow a bad guy to shoot you before he gives you a warning about what's going to happen? I've seen many cases where the victim never had a chance to defend themselves, wether they were armed or not, because by the time they knew they were a victim they were already shot or stabbed.
Why would anyone who CCWs on a daily basis not want a vest? Or even someone who only carries when they feel a real danger to their safety when they have to engage in a lawful activity that puts them in an uncomfortable situation? Is there a law that doesn't allow a bad guy to shoot you before he gives you a warning about what's going to happen? I've seen many cases where the victim never had a chance to defend themselves, wether they were armed or not, because by the time they knew they were a victim they were already shot or stabbed.
cmort666
Member
My mother bought me a Safariland(?) soft vest before I shipped for Korea. I used to wear it under my fatigue (and then BDU) shirt when I went to the range. We got it at some kind of police supply place in Chicago. We actually went to the store. It was a minor production, but I had military ID and eventually got it.
While I was in Korea, a Muslim soldier went "juramentado" and started shooting other soldiers on the range, killing and wounding several. As it turned out, another soldier saw that as an opportunity, also shooting some people at the same time. While giving an OPFOR class, I met the OIC of the range where the shooting took place. His platoon sergeant walked in front of him, just as the Muslim took a shot at him and was killed instantly.
I briefly loaned it to my best friend who was XO of HHC USAGY in Seoul when he needed it for a drug raid in the barracks.
When I PCSed to Ft. Knox, I used to wear it under my BDU shirt when we took basic trainees to the range. In addition to offering a measure of protection, it also kept me warm on the frigid, windswept ranges in the winter.
I eventually sold the vest to a friend who never uses it, but keeps it around.
While I was in Korea, a Muslim soldier went "juramentado" and started shooting other soldiers on the range, killing and wounding several. As it turned out, another soldier saw that as an opportunity, also shooting some people at the same time. While giving an OPFOR class, I met the OIC of the range where the shooting took place. His platoon sergeant walked in front of him, just as the Muslim took a shot at him and was killed instantly.
I briefly loaned it to my best friend who was XO of HHC USAGY in Seoul when he needed it for a drug raid in the barracks.
When I PCSed to Ft. Knox, I used to wear it under my BDU shirt when we took basic trainees to the range. In addition to offering a measure of protection, it also kept me warm on the frigid, windswept ranges in the winter.
I eventually sold the vest to a friend who never uses it, but keeps it around.
PersonalSecurity
Member
Interesting, you seem to know a lot on the topic. I don't know that I'll ever do it, but I know the owner of a limo company and he suggests vests to employees but doesn't provide them. He also tells them about not being heroes. Between that and the number of high profile businessmen visiting Detroit from small local Airports, I can understand why there are a decent amount of security escort companies. Throw in some trained operators with /chauffer liscenses, a PDW, and some vests.... good to go. Oh and a GPS!
I had looked at Police Surplus vests. I believe if memory serves me well they were around $150, but I don't remember the brand. They were mostly previously issued. If you can provide more insight onto this, please do. I like keeping options in the back of my mind. And putting a few Afghan veteran friends to work would be great. If you want to give me a breakdown of what to look for and what to avoid, please email me or send a PM.
Love the POU as "WWE protection". Haha.
Steve
Personal Security Systems Kydex Holsters
watchmanjimg
Member
Gator Farmer raises an interesting point. Consider the following: in Florida, for example, the possession of a vest offering protection from Threat Level I and up during the commission of certain enumerated offenses (including aggravated assault) is a separate felony from the offense itself.
Of course I understand that nobody here would commit such an offense, but we all know misunderstandings sometimes arise where civilian use of force/threat of force is concerned. Something like this could definitely complicate the situation. Just a thought. Besides, the damn things are hot!
In the end, though, it's just like the question of when/if and how many guns to carry. If it's not illegal where you live, do what makes you comfortable.
jtpur
Member
Cops go to gun shows, security personnel go to gun shows, body guards go to gun shows and there are tons of legitimate reasons to own and or wear a bullett resistant vest and no you should not have to inform your police department or for that matter any government agency....unless you plan to committ a crime and get in a shoot out with the police or good guys then you should tell them you are wearing the vest so they can aim for your head
watchmanjimg
Member
GatorFarmer
Member
You'll have trouble getting insurance if you mess around with police surplus vests. If it is something that you as an employer are going to provide, you'll want to stick to vests approved under the current NIJ standard. Velocity levels increased across the board in terms what would be stopped - partially due to the popularity of the .357 Sig and 5.7mm FN and wear resistance is now something that is tested for to a greater degree. Downside is that is now much more expensive to get vests submitted and certified and the cost is passed on to the consumer.
Warranty on a vest is generally for five years. They don't per se die at five years and day one, but they can get worn, damaged, etc. This is why any used armor is a bit of a risk. It might have sat in storage on a shelf, but it might have been worn by a big sweaty fat guy who fell in the river with it, took it home and put it through the wash and then cleaned it with gasoline later. You just never know.
The cheapest vests that I know people to wear are the Marom Dolphin ones made in Israel. They do make concealables as well as the external wear tac vests. Some Izzy stuff is junk, some is a good value. These are in the good value category. Otherwise Galls housebrand is about the cheapest of the reputable makes.
Most people that can't afford a quality U.S. set up of tac armor end up with either an Izzy vest or wearing rifle plates over a concealable.
Though you can try bulletproofme.com and muck about and it'll at least be "okay" armor that you get. They'll also sell you cheap but heavy Level III rifle plates and you can figure out a way to deal with the spalling. Steel is heavy but idiot proof. Any of the ceramic rifle plates, pay attention to the "handle with care" stamped on them. Drop them and they'll risk damage. With the "plastic" ones, don't leave them in the hot sun or the trunk of a hot car all day. With steel... kick it, drop it, drag it around... it's literally armor plate.
There's an emerging market for concealable and semi concealable rifle plates that are lighter weight. Down south of the border where 5.7mm in AP format turns up along with some other things that aren't commonly seen in the states, it might be an issue. Before private security work started to dry up in central asia it was also an issue there, since the locals learned to use 7.62x54R weapons with AP ammo to try to drop pesky Westerners.
The newish 5.56mm black tip stuff, it used to only show up on SAW belts but became more common as of late, presents a friendly fire hazard which is the other reason that AP rifle plates, they'll be stamped Level IV+ for multi hit capability, have become popular. It'll penetrate Level III plates. Penetration is similar to the old M2 .30-06 black tip ammo of ye old days, perhaps a bit better even.
If you to work the security business in MI of the sort you're talking, I'd suggest getting a PI's lisc. I was in the process of getting one when I chanced to meet my wife and ran off and got married instead. Just get a four year CJ degree and you can apply for it directly. Otherwise you need to work so many hours under someone. See a lawyer for incorporation and all that. Sal Gani in Lansing is useful if you don't already have one.
All those sorts of jobs, along with slumlording, are much less interesting than you'd think. Esp when you get old.
If you just want something good for yourself, look for a Point Blank IIIA with Thor's shield technology. These are the new ones that are "taser proof".
RKO, if he's still around the forum, used to deal in armor.
PersonalSecurity
Member
Thank you for that, Gator. Extremely insightful. I knew I was out of my lane when looking at armor, so I kind of just stopped looking. The whole business deal went south when the limo company decided to pull the backing for the town cars.
I still keep it in the back of my mind though. Maybe one day I will give it a shot. I already have the bachelors in CJ degree (WSU), but haven't decided what to do with it yet. Gonna spend some time taking the holster company public and see where that goes. I own another business as well that serves as a sort of "day job" in a much less exciting field, so I look at ventures based on being feasable and profitable. There's a reason why my company is called "Personal Security Systems" and has a kydex division - "Personal Security Holsters". The "PSS" brand may be bigger than holsters one day. Michiganders are great at making companies grow. Hell, one of us is responsible for BlackWater!
Should I decide to make the jump to security escort, I will contact you to find out even more about armor. The point you made about insurance is priceless. It would save TONS of money to spend the extra upfront and save on insurance. I know firsthand, with 2 companies, how much insurance can be. Any litte break adds up.
Thanks again for all the great information!
Steve
sgtvilla
US Veteran
HOw does it set a bad habit? I wear body armor all the time at work and I obviously don't wear it when carrying concealed and I don't see how this would affect the way I would shoot or react on a self defense situation. If anything, being used to run around with the weight or akwardness of the armor makes me feel a lot lighter and makes ll my movements easier when shooting wthout it.
Wearing armor doesnt make you overconfident or willing to get shot. fundamentals of cover and concealement are the same.
So I say.... you are a ccw guy and at any time feel that you need armor (dont see why but who knows) and you are able to use it in a legal and esponsible way, they by all means!
I tell you by experience.... even with armor on, you will always be offesive and look for cover and concealement. You will never be like "oh so I have body armor, Im gonna be passive and I wont take cover and I wont mind getting shot" If you do, you are a fool and dont know what youre doing, with a vest on or not!
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Will Carry
Member
I have to say that if you feel you need body armor, then there is nothing wrong with a good bullet proof vest. It's part of the triangle, mobility, fire power, protection.
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