daniel lawecki
Member
I've used TG enough in my favorite calibers to buy 8lbs at a time. I use to clays in .45 acp and .38 special.
Tightgroup powder in Winchester .45 ACP cases
- Thread starter Kiwi cop
- Start date
OP
Testing Time
I have suspected for a while now that the barrel in my Springfield 1911 is a 'slow' barrel, that is velocities are lower in this barrel than in another, all other things, case, bullet, powder and charge, being equal.
Now I know.
I took a variety of handholds of different powder charges to the range a few days ago along with both my Springfield and my new Tanfoglio Witness 1911 .45's and my chronograph.
At 3 pm in the afternoon and a temperature of around 70 degrees F, with factory loads (Winchester 230 gn JHP at a nominal 880 fps/202PF), I ran an IPSC competition chronograph test, three rounds averaged out and PF calculated then another two (the maximum additional number you can request if your ammo fails to set PF at a comp here in Kiwiland) the results were interesting to say the least, and in more ways than one.
In the Springfield three rounds averaged 856.2 fps/196.92PF. Five rounds were 848.5/195.15.
In the Witness three rounds averaged 912.1/209.7 and five rounds 892.5/205.2. Pretty much as advertised on the Winchester box.
With a 'benchmark' set I moved on to my handholds.
With a maximum load of Tightgroup in the Springfield the results were:
Three rounds 854/170.8.
Five rounds 852.8/170.56
Compare this to 7:30 am ten days earlier, temp around 64 F, and the results for 5 rounds had been 793/158.6.
In the Witness it was 867.2/173.4 three rounds and 867.6/173.5 for five rounds. I was pretty surprised at just how consistent this was, and the Witness maintained this consistency throughout the rest of the choreographing.
Now I could use this load and make PF in both guns on a sunny afternoon but the results are a little close to the 170 PF I need to make major to rely on, especially in the Springfield..
Maximum +.2 gn Tightgroup in the Springfield yielded three shots 839.2/167.8 and five rounds 838.04/167.6. The earlier chronograph had been 831.73/166.34 and 824.1/164.8.
In the Witness the +.2 gn load results were 872.23/174.44 and 878.84/175.76. I would like to test his load a few more times but I would be comfortable using this load in competition if the results stay consistent.
Maximum load plus .4 gn of Tightgroup the results were:
Springfield; 886.0/177.2 and 886.42/177.28 with the earlier test being 848.9/169.7.
In the Witness this load tested at 930.5/186.1 and 918.7/183.7. Safe but a little hot for my taste in competition use, but again I would like to see what this tests out at on another day. If it drops significantly early in the day/cooler temperature then it may be an appropriate competition load. At least it is significantly lower than the factory 230 gn load
On the earlier test day I had tried max + ,5 gn Tightgroup in the Springfield and got 869.8/173.9 and 867/173.4 which is the load I have been shooting for some time now, and previous chronograph results had been in the 175-178 PF range at different times.
A maximum load of W231 gave result in the Springfield of 782.2/157.8 and 790.5/158.1. Quite consistent but very low.
In the Witness it was 817.5/163.5 and 819.3/163.8, consistent but still below the 170 PF plus security margin I am looking for.
Max + .1 gn of W231 in the Springfield results were 772.66/154.53 and 780.44/156.09. Again consistent and interestingly the earlier testing of Max - .4 gn and -.2 gn W231 had given similar results, the velocity and PF went down as the powder charge went up . 2 gn.(776.1/155.8 and 730.02/146 for five rounds).
In the Witness the W231 Max +.1 gn load results were 833.2/166.6 and 834.3/166.8. Again very consistent results with W231 if still significantly low.
Another shooter I know uses max +.3 gn W231 under a 230 gn JRN bullet to make PF. This is a quite accurate load too, but it seems that published W231 data may be a bit on the low side.
I have a batch (25 rounds) of W231 loaded Max +.3 gn to try out next time I am at the range with the chronograph. That will probably not be for another week though as I am pretty busy with both work and Christmas preparations until then. Hopefully this will give results enough above PF to allow for a safety margin in both pistols. If it does I will change my loads, but if it still does not make PF I may go back to the max + .2 and +4 gn loads of Tightgroup again for some further testing.
I have suspected for a while now that the barrel in my Springfield 1911 is a 'slow' barrel, that is velocities are lower in this barrel than in another, all other things, case, bullet, powder and charge, being equal.
Now I know.
I took a variety of handholds of different powder charges to the range a few days ago along with both my Springfield and my new Tanfoglio Witness 1911 .45's and my chronograph.
At 3 pm in the afternoon and a temperature of around 70 degrees F, with factory loads (Winchester 230 gn JHP at a nominal 880 fps/202PF), I ran an IPSC competition chronograph test, three rounds averaged out and PF calculated then another two (the maximum additional number you can request if your ammo fails to set PF at a comp here in Kiwiland) the results were interesting to say the least, and in more ways than one.
In the Springfield three rounds averaged 856.2 fps/196.92PF. Five rounds were 848.5/195.15.
In the Witness three rounds averaged 912.1/209.7 and five rounds 892.5/205.2. Pretty much as advertised on the Winchester box.
With a 'benchmark' set I moved on to my handholds.
With a maximum load of Tightgroup in the Springfield the results were:
Three rounds 854/170.8.
Five rounds 852.8/170.56
Compare this to 7:30 am ten days earlier, temp around 64 F, and the results for 5 rounds had been 793/158.6.
In the Witness it was 867.2/173.4 three rounds and 867.6/173.5 for five rounds. I was pretty surprised at just how consistent this was, and the Witness maintained this consistency throughout the rest of the choreographing.
Now I could use this load and make PF in both guns on a sunny afternoon but the results are a little close to the 170 PF I need to make major to rely on, especially in the Springfield..
Maximum +.2 gn Tightgroup in the Springfield yielded three shots 839.2/167.8 and five rounds 838.04/167.6. The earlier chronograph had been 831.73/166.34 and 824.1/164.8.
In the Witness the +.2 gn load results were 872.23/174.44 and 878.84/175.76. I would like to test his load a few more times but I would be comfortable using this load in competition if the results stay consistent.
Maximum load plus .4 gn of Tightgroup the results were:
Springfield; 886.0/177.2 and 886.42/177.28 with the earlier test being 848.9/169.7.
In the Witness this load tested at 930.5/186.1 and 918.7/183.7. Safe but a little hot for my taste in competition use, but again I would like to see what this tests out at on another day. If it drops significantly early in the day/cooler temperature then it may be an appropriate competition load. At least it is significantly lower than the factory 230 gn load
On the earlier test day I had tried max + ,5 gn Tightgroup in the Springfield and got 869.8/173.9 and 867/173.4 which is the load I have been shooting for some time now, and previous chronograph results had been in the 175-178 PF range at different times.
A maximum load of W231 gave result in the Springfield of 782.2/157.8 and 790.5/158.1. Quite consistent but very low.
In the Witness it was 817.5/163.5 and 819.3/163.8, consistent but still below the 170 PF plus security margin I am looking for.
Max + .1 gn of W231 in the Springfield results were 772.66/154.53 and 780.44/156.09. Again consistent and interestingly the earlier testing of Max - .4 gn and -.2 gn W231 had given similar results, the velocity and PF went down as the powder charge went up . 2 gn.(776.1/155.8 and 730.02/146 for five rounds).
In the Witness the W231 Max +.1 gn load results were 833.2/166.6 and 834.3/166.8. Again very consistent results with W231 if still significantly low.
Another shooter I know uses max +.3 gn W231 under a 230 gn JRN bullet to make PF. This is a quite accurate load too, but it seems that published W231 data may be a bit on the low side.
I have a batch (25 rounds) of W231 loaded Max +.3 gn to try out next time I am at the range with the chronograph. That will probably not be for another week though as I am pretty busy with both work and Christmas preparations until then. Hopefully this will give results enough above PF to allow for a safety margin in both pistols. If it does I will change my loads, but if it still does not make PF I may go back to the max + .2 and +4 gn loads of Tightgroup again for some further testing.
I am totally baffled by this thread. Considering your gunshop’s inspection indicating the new Winchester brass is cracked, I would be sending some samples to Winchester and asking for their opinion.
If you are intentionally exceeding published data - why? That shouldn’t be necessary to make PF 170 with a .45.
As to Winchester .45 Auto brass, it’s always been excellent, but you could have run into some that weren’t tempered correctly, or something like that. I’ve had that happen once in fifty-years of handloading - with Federal .32 Magnum brass.
You say you think your barrel is slow. Is it substantially slower than published data? BTW, .45 Auto bullets should NOT be 0.007” oversize - ever. A thousandth or even two is one thing; seven is “right out!”
Final thought - has your gun been inspected by a knowledgeable 1911 armorer/gunsmith for safe operation? (In particular, proper operation of the disconnector.)
If you are intentionally exceeding published data - why? That shouldn’t be necessary to make PF 170 with a .45.
As to Winchester .45 Auto brass, it’s always been excellent, but you could have run into some that weren’t tempered correctly, or something like that. I’ve had that happen once in fifty-years of handloading - with Federal .32 Magnum brass.
You say you think your barrel is slow. Is it substantially slower than published data? BTW, .45 Auto bullets should NOT be 0.007” oversize - ever. A thousandth or even two is one thing; seven is “right out!”
Final thought - has your gun been inspected by a knowledgeable 1911 armorer/gunsmith for safe operation? (In particular, proper operation of the disconnector.)
TiteWad is a shotgun powder. TiteGroup is a pistol/revolver powder.
oneounceload
Member
Incorrect. TITEWAD is the shotgun powder, Titegroup is the pistol version,and works really well in my 38 and 9mm loads. If your reloading process allows for double and triple charges, that is not the powder's fault; that is yours.
Hi Kiwi,
I don't know if this will be of any interest to you, but way back, waay back in the stone age when the USPSA Major Power Factor was still 175 and Winchester finally discontinued 452AA, I switched over to WST, Winchester Super Target with mainly 200 grain cast bullets in my .45 ACP, and somewhat more limited with 185's as well. I always made Major, never got downgraded to Minor.
You can check out Hodgdon's site for more information.
Best of luck to you.
I don't know if this will be of any interest to you, but way back, waay back in the stone age when the USPSA Major Power Factor was still 175 and Winchester finally discontinued 452AA, I switched over to WST, Winchester Super Target with mainly 200 grain cast bullets in my .45 ACP, and somewhat more limited with 185's as well. I always made Major, never got downgraded to Minor.
You can check out Hodgdon's site for more information.
Best of luck to you.
OP
Hi Kiwi,
I don't know if this will be of any interest to you, but way back, waay back in the stone age when the USPSA Major Power Factor was still 175 and Winchester finally discontinued 452AA, I switched over to WST, Winchester Super Target with mainly 200 grain cast bullets in my .45 ACP, and somewhat more limited with 185's as well. I always made Major, never got downgraded to Minor.
You can check out Hodgdon's site for more information.
Best of luck to you.
I used to load WST in 9mm. Then found out that it was definitely not a 9mm powder
I’m slowly getting to Major PF with W231 but it is still above max load on the Hodgson website
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Been using Titegroup in .38 / .357 and never had any problems. My standard powder for .45 acp is W231 but if I run out I would not hesitate to use Titegroup.
daniel lawecki
Member
H & G 200 grain SWC CII 300 primer and 4.5 grains of Titegroup my to go load for my two 1911s.
Mikeinkaty
Member
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I rarely see muzzle flashes using Titegroup in my 3” 686+P. I use it for very light loads or heavy loads. But, for light loads I generally use Trail Boss. I only shoot powder coated bullets that I pour myself.
I've never heard that Winchester cases are prone to failure. I use mostly Federal cases, but have had no issues with the few Winchester cases in the stockpile.
I'm wondering if you might be having setback issues.
I experimented with Titegroup when I first started reloading, I wasn't all that impressed. I found it to be neither particularly accurate nor clean in my .45. Plus it burns very hot. I think W231 is a better powder, although I like Bullseye better than both.
For full power, I like Universal. I have a 1# can if BE86 but haven't had a chance to try it yet.
I'm wondering if you might be having setback issues.
I experimented with Titegroup when I first started reloading, I wasn't all that impressed. I found it to be neither particularly accurate nor clean in my .45. Plus it burns very hot. I think W231 is a better powder, although I like Bullseye better than both.
For full power, I like Universal. I have a 1# can if BE86 but haven't had a chance to try it yet.
Setback is definitely something to consider as I have seen that destroy a 2011 in 40 at a match I was in. Make sure taper crimp is correct. Many use titegroup without problems. Also data with plated bullets is different from lead.
I used to load WST in 9mm. Then found out that it was definitely not a 9mm powder
I’m slowly getting to Major PF with W231 but it is still above max load on the Hodgson website
As strange as it sounds, I consider Hodgdon to be a very poor source of data. Their max loads are very low and you will NOT reach the advertised velocities in a real firearm.
One of the bullet manufacturer's reloading manuals is a better source. My favorite is Hornady, Sierra is also good.
The reason I'm thinking setback is the .45 auto is a low pressure cartridge. Kiwicop's loads shouldn't be any where close to the pressure needed to blow a case.
"One issue is that the barrel in my Springfield is unsupported." quote;
Major with that type of barrel...?
and with Winchester brass, even if new..............
Glad you are changing things up, hopefully to a safer loading.
In case of an accident.............
who is going to type for you?
I will just leave it at this.
Major with that type of barrel...?
and with Winchester brass, even if new..............
Glad you are changing things up, hopefully to a safer loading.
In case of an accident.............
who is going to type for you?
I will just leave it at this.
OP
We are talking .45 ACP here not 9mm.
230 gn bullet at 750 fps = 172.5 PF
200 gn bullet at 860 fps= 172 PF
The Winchester factory ammo I bought mid competition was 230 gn bullet at 880 fps for a 202 PF. That is a 202 PF.
I seriously doubt Winchester would ever sell .45 ACP ammo that could not be fired in an unsupported GI barrel.
OP
Finally some good results:
Just after New Year the readout of my CED M2 chronograph fell off the table and damaged it. Thanks to CED I soon had a new readout unit and was back in business.
I tried three different powders working up to maximum loads using three powders. In my new EEA Witness 1911 .45 Custom I could just make over major PF (170) with max loads of both Tightgroup and W231. But in my SA the PF with both powders was down to the low-mid 160’s.
I went .2 gn over max with TG and was just occasionally nudging, but not averaging major PF in the SA.
Today I returned to the range with both pistols, some of the Winchester 230 gn 202 PF load and 35 handloads .2 of a grain over max published load of W231.
The Winchester factory loads made a 5 shot average PF of 192 in the Springfield and 196 in the Witness.
My handloads made 177/178 PF for three and five shot averages in the SA and 178/179 PF in the Witness.
A little higher than I was wanting (175/176 PF) but I can live with the slight increase above that.
I am still reluctant to reload those Winchester cases though. At present I think I will load them with a -.2 gn charge for “light practice”. Either that or I will designate them for my even lighter Wild Bunch (150 PF) and Service Match (130 PF) loads only.
Just after New Year the readout of my CED M2 chronograph fell off the table and damaged it. Thanks to CED I soon had a new readout unit and was back in business.
I tried three different powders working up to maximum loads using three powders. In my new EEA Witness 1911 .45 Custom I could just make over major PF (170) with max loads of both Tightgroup and W231. But in my SA the PF with both powders was down to the low-mid 160’s.
I went .2 gn over max with TG and was just occasionally nudging, but not averaging major PF in the SA.
Today I returned to the range with both pistols, some of the Winchester 230 gn 202 PF load and 35 handloads .2 of a grain over max published load of W231.
The Winchester factory loads made a 5 shot average PF of 192 in the Springfield and 196 in the Witness.
My handloads made 177/178 PF for three and five shot averages in the SA and 178/179 PF in the Witness.
A little higher than I was wanting (175/176 PF) but I can live with the slight increase above that.
I am still reluctant to reload those Winchester cases though. At present I think I will load them with a -.2 gn charge for “light practice”. Either that or I will designate them for my even lighter Wild Bunch (150 PF) and Service Match (130 PF) loads only.
A bad batch of cases can happen..........
as you stated, just use them for light target use, to be safe.
I'm not knocking Win. brass but the last two "Major problem" cases that failed in my
pistol and revolver shooting ( .357 Mag. & .38 spl) were made from this company.........
both loads were at or below factory data.
I don't mind a split or crack here and there on a old case but to
have it fail at the base or separate in the middle, all the way around
does get ones attention.
Stay safe.
as you stated, just use them for light target use, to be safe.
I'm not knocking Win. brass but the last two "Major problem" cases that failed in my
pistol and revolver shooting ( .357 Mag. & .38 spl) were made from this company.........
both loads were at or below factory data.
I don't mind a split or crack here and there on a old case but to
have it fail at the base or separate in the middle, all the way around
does get ones attention.
Stay safe.
