Took My First Revolver Apart .. Couple Questions

[Raystown]

Thanks in advance ... This is my very first complete take down of any SW revolver. I bought a Model 66-3 in 2.5" with original box and all the paperwork and tools. I got it for a great price knowing it was a bit out of time. From my research it's not a hard fix ? I took her apart and cleaned her up. She was dirty as all heck. The lock up is not as tight also as I would want it to be.

#1 .. I know I need to get a oversized hand.

#2 .. Should I get a new cylinder stop ? Would this help on the lock up ?

Thank You, Brian

Raystown

 

[Protocall_Design]

I prefer not to have a bank vault tight lockup on mine. Timing is more important to me. Everyone has their own ideas of what they want, so I share my experience and everyone is free to take advice or not.

If you get an oversized hand, you will also need a hand window file and a diamond file. We can't tell from here if you need a new cylinder stop or not. The stop may be worn or the cyl. stop window may be peened or the cyl. stop notches on the cyl. may need reworked. Can't tell without the gun in hand.

 

[dfariswheel]

You don't get "Bank vault" lockup on a S&W and YOU SHOULDN'T.

The only modern revolvers that lock up tightly with the trigger pulled are the original Colt actions as used on the Detective Special, Python, etc.
They were advertised as having Colt's famous "Bank Vault" lockup.

These guns have an action that forces the cylinder into tight lock up when the trigger is pulled.
That puts the chamber into perfect alignment with the barrel.

The advantage is better accuracy because there's no deformation of the bullet hitting the forcing cone off center.
The down side is, the action is far more difficult and time consuming to build because the action had to be totally hand fitted by a highly skilled worker who earned top dollar.
Due to the far more critical timing and complex action the Colt's can't be abused and still work correctly.

S&W and all other modern revolvers are specifically designed NOT to lock up tightly when the trigger is pulled.
This slight looseness allows the bullet passing from the chamber to the barrel to force the chamber into alignment with the barrel.
The advantage of this is the action is far less complicated and can be assembled by a moderately trained worker, who works for lower pay.
That keeps the price down.
Since the action is less critical, the gun can withstand more wear or abuse then the more delicate and refined Colt action.

The disadvantage is, the bullet hits the forcing cone off center and that causes slight deformation of the bullet and reduced accuracy.
This is why in the revolver days of Match shooting the Colt's held all the records and were used by all the top shooters.
The more consistent alignment and lack of bullet deformation gave better accuracy.

If you attempt to remove all the looseness in a S&W the revolver will not be able to operate correctly.
Even in those S&W's that seem to lock up tightly there's still enough backlash built into the action to allow the necessary cylinder movement.
How much looseness is not a specification from the factory.
The only tests are: Is the gun accurate? Does it spit bullet metal out the barrel-cylinder gap?
If it's accurate and not spitting metal....it's good and should not be tampered with.

Since in the Colt the harder the trigger is pulled (within reason, you can damage the action) the tighter the cylinder is locked in place.
In the S&W holding the trigger back is not a valid test for anything.
If you simply cock the hammer, that's as tight as the cylinder is going to get because the S&W pawl (hand in a Colt) doesn't push the cylinder continuously.
The S&W pawl by-passes the ejector ratchet so it can't get any tighter.

So, a loose cylinder means the gun is working correctly and attempts to tighten it up will likely cause it to shoot less accurately and possibly start spitting bullet metal out the barrel-cylinder gap.

In short, your S&W is working precisely as it was designed to work and attempting to remove the slight cylinder movement is a bad mistake.
The S&W action is what it is, and attempts to change that is going directly against the design intent and capability.

 

[walter o]

Above are words of WISDOM to live and learn by.

 

[Raystown]

Took her apart and cleaned her up, timing still off. I will grab a a STD hand and a Oversized hand. She is ok on timing when I pull the hammer at reg pull, when I pull the hammer slowly she out of time on 4 of 6 holes. Hopefully the hands will do the trick. I been watching video's on YouTube, very helpful.

Thanks Fella's

Brian

Thank You all for the great advise.

 

[m1gunner]

Have you miced your hand? There is some variance on "standard" size hands.

I had some spares several years ago, and they varied one way or another by several thousandths of an inch. I sold some to folks looking for a certain size hand. They helped correct carry up problems for those members.

 

[Protocall_Design]

You may want to try it with empty cases in the chambers. Sometimes it's different with and without ammo.

 

[lefty_jake]

I know some people say that fixing the timing on a Smith & Wesson revolver is not difficult, but I would disagree. Sometimes fixing the timing is easy, and other times it is much more involved.

I am in favor of people learning about revolvers by making reversible changes, like switching the hand. But non-reversible changes which involve using files on major components require much more caution. Since your revolver is off on four out of six chambers, it is quite likely that switching hands will resolve the issue. However, it can also happen that a hand thick enough to correct timing on the four chambers will cause binding on the remaining two. In this case, the two rachets would probably need to be dressed with a file. As mentioned above, it may also be necessary to file the frame window in order to fit a thick enough hand. I do not consider any filing on the frame or the rachets to be "easy." These tasks may not be difficult, but they require knowing exactly what you are doing.

Also, the factory sometimes fixes timing issues by cutting a new rachet instead of replacing the hand. So it is not true that a new hand is always the correct solution to timing problem.

I think a lot of tasks are considered "easy" by people who have been lucky enough to encounter a few easy examples. And I am definitely in favor of fitting new parts to see if you can get correct function. But if the new parts do not fit easily, there is no dishonor in seeking help from an expert.

 

[Wee Hooker]

You can find a new oversized hand at Brownells. You can also heat and work the old hand if you know how
That said, I'd consider myself comfortably familiar with the inside of a S&W revolver after 20+ years of tinkering and would still approach with caution. Not sure I'd consider this a job for a first time gunsmith.

 

[Raystown]

Update ... I called SW and the fella was very helpful. Asked for the S/N #, he said its very likely it will be covered by warranty, if it is not he said they will call and let me know the damage. I feel better sending it in and hopefully get it back and having it done right.

The one good thing I got out of it was that it was my first time completely stripping a revolver down and putting it back together. Nice to know I can do this now. Good for when I want to do a nice complete cleaning. I'll post when I hear back for SW.

Thank You All.

 

[shawn mccarver]

This is one of those deals where, "if you have to ask. . . ."

Sorry, but you cannot learn to gunsmith the S&W revolver from reading a few posts on line. Half of the posts may be wrong. Reading this one thread should cause you to realize that opinions are all over the place. How many of those answering are qualified gunsmiths? Be careful with your revolver, lest you ruin it beyond repair because of bad advice from an anonymous poster on a discussion.

 

[MygunisaS&Wrevolver]

dfariswheel, I saw your post on tightness, very good info. My comment is that I have some older Smiths (model 57 no dash and 28-2) they are new in the box. What little I have shot them, shows that they are extremely accurate. When I check these with the range rod plug gauge there are no ticks or rubs in the indexed cylinder positions with the finger off the trigger and the trigger cocked and lastly with the finger holding the trigger back tightly. The plug gauge even falls into the empty cases w/o ticks with the trigger held to the rear, I think the allignment is spectacular. With the trigger held all the way to the rear the cylinder is tight. When the finger is off the trigger there is a little bit of rotational wiggle in the cylinder at rest and in the cocked position. I don't think what you are talking about is wrong, I think that S&W has fudged a little bit with the new guns as far as looseness goes because the b/c allignment is not held to the same standard as the older guns and as you have said, the time and personel to make these fine adjustments are no longer economicaly feasible.

 

[dfariswheel]

Sounds like you got a couple of real winners. Hold on tight to them.

Again, holding the trigger back on the S&W, and all other DA revolvers except the old Colt actions is NOT a valid test for anything.
While the cylinder may seem to lock tighter the action has designed-in backlash that will allow cylinder movement when fired.
When testing lockup and alignment, put EMPTY cases in the cylinder. Often the ejector is slightly loose and may give a false indication of locking.

There are several places to NOT learn how to work on guns:

The forums, unless you're VERY careful.
You have no way of knowing who's right and who's some kid or boob sitting in the basement and posting.

Youtube.
This is even worse. I've seen some videos that show ways guaranteed to destroy a gun.
One video showed disassembly of a Python where he recommended using pliers to remove the barrel !!!! and a screwdriver to pry off the side plate.

At the range or gun shop.
Again, they may or may not know what they're talking about, and I've heard advice that was deliberately intended for the owner to damage his gun.
What it is that causes someone to do something so vicious is a mystery to me.

What I can guarantee about bad advice is that the person giving it WILL NOT be standing by with a handful of cash offering to buy you a new gun because his advise was totally wrong.

Where you can learn is by careful picking of posters on this forum with lots of posts and where no one posts that the advice is wrong.
There may be slight disagreements among experts on fine details but not clear statements that something is just flat out wrong.

Buy the Jerry Kuhnhausen Shop Manual on the Double Action S&W Revolvers.
These manuals were written as training aids for new gunsmith students and show all repairs to FACTORY standards. You'll find no advice on heating and bending, soldering, or altering parts to get a gun working somehow.
These manuals show how to restore a gun to factory original operating condition.
Buy them from Brownell's, Midway, or direct from the publisher.

Getting admitted to a S&W armorers course.
These are usually restricted to law enforcement but sometimes ordinary people can get in.

Taking a NRA Summer Course that gives S&W training.

Almost these recommended ways to learn hold true for other guns too.
As example, if you want advice on a Colt, go to the Colt forum.