TWO INSTANCES IN 2 WEEKS TO BACK UP MY RED DOT OPINION ON A EDC/CCW GUN

[chief38]

As some may already be aware of, I am not a fan of optical sights of any kind on a carry gun. Aside for the obvious hinderances of pocket carrying, getting a special holster because of the red dot in some cases, being knocked out of alignment etc. the main reason is because they DO fail more often than one might think. I have witnessed this at least a half dozen times over the years.

Over the last two weeks I have gone to the range with two different people (ironically with the same first name) who had red dot sights installed on their pistols. The first friend had one mounted on his S&W M&P and right after the second magazine full his red dot died. He called me two days later and told me he replaced the batteries and it was then working however that day at the range he had no usable red dot.

The second friend (this past Friday) had his red dot mounted on a Sig P365XL. He had just bought the pistol with the red dot from a friend who owned it briefly and said he had not fired it. The reason for the sale was his friends health. Anyway, he fired the pistol for the first time (12 rounds I believe) and then reloaded. All of a sudden I looked next to me and saw him doing all sorts of funny gyrations and looking for the red dot. He said it had disappeared and won't cone back on. Well, the rest of the day's shooting for him was his rifle. As of yet, I don't know exactly what the issue is but he said he did replace the battery and that was not the issue as it still did not come on.

I truly think I've convinced both of them to carry their CCW's without the red dot sights going forward. Over the last decade I have seen at least 6-8 red dot failures. Some due to batteries, a few due to a broken wire and probably some due to faulty circuitry. Bottom line here is they DO fail from time to time and will delay at least the first shot while you are looking for something not there. Unfortunately even of one works for years, it could still fail at the worst possible time - hence the argument for not using one on a carry gun. This has always been my opinion and over the last 2 weeks this has been reinforced once again. Your guns, your lives, your choice.

 

[Jimmy4570]

I can say that the Aimpoint appears to be the lone red dot optic that can claim to be reliable enough for duty use, at least the Comp M series. Hopefully that same quality has carried over into the ACRO. The EoTech, while popular, is not nearly as reliable as the Aimpoints. I'm hopeful that Primary Arms' HTX will prove up to Aimpoint quality as it's time America had an American red dot manufacturer.

 

[Rodan]

Before I retired between academy classes, transition courses and ongoing training I watched well over 100 guns with red dots fire thousands of rounds. I've fired many thousands of rounds through my own 5 handguns with red dots. In all of that, I've only ever witnessed one actual failure of a red dot sight. Glock front sights have a much higher failure rate!

Trijicon, Holosun and Aimpoint all make very reliable sights that are perfectly suitable for EDC. It was a Trijicon that failed BTW.

On public ranges, I've seen a few other failures, but none of them were the above brands, and none of them were brands I would put on a carry gun... Romeo, Burris, no-name China, etc.

Anyone who's been shooting any length of time can tell anecdotal stories of range failures... of GUNS. I've seen failures of all kinds, and with most brands. That doesn't keep us from carrying them.

Everyone has opinions. The OP doesn't like optics. That's fine, he doesn't have to use them. But I've seen the real improvements they can bring to a shooter's practical capabilities in speed and accuracy. It's not a fad... it's progress, and progress happens despite any of us.

 

[stansdds]

I'm not a fan of optics on a concealed carry pistol, which is how I carry. I do see optics as one more component that can fail when you need it most. Also, optics add bulk to the pistol, making it less concealable.

I have, to date, had only one failure with an iron sight and that was on my USPSA competition 1911 back in the mid-1990's. I had installed a replacement rear sight, fully adjustable, and the matching staked front sight on a Springfield Armory slide. Everything seemed fine during several practice sessions and a few local matches. On the second day of a regional championship match, I found it harder to accurately place my shots. The front sight had loosened and was wobbling around, eventually parting company with the slide. So far, that has been the only iron sight failure that I have had, but I also don't have any firearms with plastic sights.

 

[fatcat3]

Not to sound like "Back in the day", but in my experience batteries, especially small batteries are not what they were 10-15 years ago. I personally have had a number of 2,3,&4 A type batteries, as well as hearing aid and watch batteries dead or all but right out of the package. It don't seem to matter if you get the cheapest dollar store or the most expensive you can lay your hands on.
We had Aimpoints on the ARs at work and I never saw or heard of one failure.
I'm a firm believer in the KISS system for carry guns, and don't care for Legos for adults hanging all over my guns. However, each to his own and if it lifts your skirt, have at it.

 

[David Sinko]

I have an RMR on a Glock 19 that has never let me down. I've shot some matches with it and adapted to it quickly. I have a perfect co-witness with the iron sights so if the battery dies it's no big deal. I don't think I've ever seen a red dot fail at an action pistol match, other than a battery that needed to be changed. I think most of the failures can be attributed to cheap junk. The red dot has some advantages and while I prefer to carry iron sights I don't object to a good red dot. My current employer has decided to issue us the Glock 19 with Holosun optic. The Holosun has a good reputation. I guess I'll find out soon enough.

 

[Breakaway500]

My carry guns are all iron sights as my needs for self defense are at a range of less than 10 feet: Point and pull the trigger.

I really like holographic sights for target shooting and plinking.At 50 feet,it's impossible for me to hit a bullseye with my "aged" vision with any iron sight.

I also like scopes a lot...but somehow they are not as "hot" as todays holographic units.

 

[dubshooter]

To be fair, these stories don’t tell me much except you have a couple of friends that don’t check their gear very often.

The second shooter is someone who bought a gun with a dot that was “brand new”. It’s no secret that gun manufacturers send guns out with cheap stuff installed from the factory. Manufacturer supplied red dots, scopes, etc, are usually entry level. The batteries are usually bargain bulk purchase as well. Quality batteries should be installed.

I don’t really care if you like dots or not. But using these examples is like saying a Toyota Camry is not a reliable car because your 20 year old daughter got stranded on the side of the road on her way to the mall because the car ran out of gas.

 

[Farmer17]

I love my Holosuns with the circle dot, I don't pickup a single dot as quickly with other sights but that might be because I haven't spent a huge amount of time training with them. As great as they are I would always carry a good second gun if my primary had optics.

 

[Yendor357]

News Flash:Battery operated devices need fresh batteries from time to time. The guy who bought the red dot second hand should have put fresh batteries in the optic as soon as he got it. Dead batteries are the operator’s failure, not the optic’s. Put some spare batteries in the range bag. It’s not that hard.

I like the trio of Leupold Delta Point Pros that I have. But if I did every day carry, it’d be with my SIG P365 and the night sights that are on it.

 

[cracker57]

I have an old bushnell holo sight on my 44, makes ringing steel at 100 yrds easy. This sight is old and was also on my 12 gauge for a while so recoil has not effected it and it never has let me down. It blinks when the battery is getting weak so I know when to change it. If it should fail it could cost me a deer or maybe a beer when betting my buddies.
With that said, if I am betting my life I will stick to irons even with my bad eyes.

 

[Hawg Rider]

I love my Holosuns with the circle dot, I don't pickup a single dot as quickly with other sights but that might be because I haven't spent a huge amount of time training with them. As great as they are I would always carry a good second gun if my primary had optics.

Same here...no issues whatsoever with my Holosuns. And I love the circle dot, too. I have a 507C reflex sight on my M&P 10mm 2.0 (4.6"), and a 403C red dot sight on my SIG MPX SBR. Both are battery and solar powered. One thing to remember is that RDS are not intuitive sights...it takes lots of patience and practice to properly mount, pick up the dot, and shoot. Also, it's always wise to have iron and/or co-witness sights on your firearm just in case the RDS does fail.

 

[WR Moore]

While buying quality can do wonders for the longevity of any product, they all need some periodic care. I've been using Aimpoint RDOs on long guns for decades. While doing some PM on the most frequently used, I started thinking about batteries. I discovered that I haven't bought a spare battery since 2010. Uh, just realized that might not be the only spare, need to find the box for the one I'm talking about and see if there's a newer spare. In any case, I need to go battery shopping.

Back when I shot competition, the RDOs would get a fresh battery at the start of every season and I kept a spare in the gear box. I've got maintenance logs for all the vehicles, I guess I need to establish one for gadgets with batteries.

I've always believed-and taught-that the RDO supplements the iron sights , it's not a replacement. The irons should be permanent and visible through the optic.

Also, if you're got an otherwise acceptable sight picture, don't bother looking for the dot, press the trigger.

 

[AJ]

If the handgun is meant for social work it to me is meant to trained with and shot without gee-jaws hanging all over it. Have seen way to many problems with them failing. Co-witnessed irons are ok, however once the optic fails it will take your brain housing group a couple of seconds at least to figure out that you have a problem. By the time you get it straightened out and switch to the irons the whole affair will be over with and you will have a bigger problem with some holes in you instead of the person that started the affair. Nice for range toys and maybe hunting where your life does not depend on it. Start the flames. ������

 

[robertrwalsh]

I own one "serious" pistol with a red dot, a Hellcat Pro. I got it recently at a good price and wanted to see if I liked it. I do, but I am not at all likely to carry it. At the distance I am likely to need a handgun it seems an unnecessary complication-distraction to me. I also have two Ruger 22/45 that I shoot for Steel Challenge, one with a red dot, one without. The one with the red dot is definitely a tad faster for me when tracking from target to target.

 

[DHernandez]

Red dot sights, like all other firearms and equipment, must be maintained. That means regular lens cleaning, blowing lint out of the emitter (if not a closed design) each day you do your condition check before holstering and regularly changing batteries (a least quarterly). Also, using a heavily tested and mil/LE certified brand optic (Trijicon, Sig, Aimpoint). Anyone claiming to be responsible enough to carry a firearm also has a duty to maintain said firearm and all associated equipment (mags, weapon mounted light, holster (screws, etc). If you are too lazy to maintain gear that may be utilized in a life or death situation you shouldn’t be carrying to begin with. Now- all that said- we train all the time with a battery failure drill using the window of the optic. You can certainly deliver accurate rounds on a man-size target 15yds and in by using the optic window with no visible dot.

 

[Shrek Of The Arctic]

In the matter of red dots, it kinda doesn't matter to me personally. There is no red dot in existence that works with my vision. No green dots, reflex sights, etc. This was verified at my Optometrist a few days ago.

I've been to enough leagues and competitions to see that the red dot division is always better than the iron sight division. I understand that is not self defense, but it is time and accuracy, so I don't disregard those results.

Having said that, I've seen a decent handful of red dot and red dot user failures.

My brother was shooting his Vortex Viper at the range when a bunch of stuff came loose at recoil. Turned out that his battery compartment came unscrewed at recoil. Launched the battery and the lid. Yes, he should have checked to be sure it was screwed on all the way.

I invited my son to a league shoot once. He's a fairly skilled shooter, but he suddenly started shooting awful. Really, really bad on a 75 round course of fire. Afterwards I asked him what happened. He explained that his Trijicon SRO had died on him at the very beginning. He'd owned it less than six months. He took it apart to see that the battery inside had exploded. I guess he should have checked his battery before shooting?

Another time, he was shooting a red dot at a Steel Challenge. He lost all accuracy and came to find out his red dot had worked itself loose using the factory thread locker. Maybe he could have found it loose if he'd checked his gun more thoroughly?

And still another time, we made a range trip on a bitter cold day. It was like...negative 15 degrees ambient, and the wind was blowing pretty hard too. We set up our targets and called "Range hot!" For some reason, I was shooting his Glock 34 with the Trijicon SRO on it. I raised the pistol to realize that the lens was completely fogged up due to the transition from a warm vehicle to the freezing cold. I could hardly make out my target or the dot. This likely could have been avoided by using a lens de-fogger such as "Cat ****" (real name)

Another time (before my vision went completely to hell) I had a red dot shoot loose, having used blue loctite and a torque driver. I guess I should have double checked it before heading to the range.

At this point, I've been around long enough to see plenty of weapon and red dot failures. But...I've seen more failed dots than weapons. I've just named a few easy ones.

For each of these failures, one can say "It was the shooter's fault! Not the equipment!" And not be in error. But...the thing is, that I have very limited use in a piece of shootng equipment that requires me to regularly check batteries, coat the lens, check the mounting torque, double check the battery and compartment, etc. I also don't do a pre-trip inspection on my automobile every time I run down to the corner store.

I really do love my guns, and love shooting. I also love being around family, friends, pets, the outdoors, reading, crafting, foraging...

Which is probably one of the reasons I'm completely okay with an iron sighted revolver that I clean a few times a year and call it good.

Red dots are here to stay. They will only improve from here, but on the overall, I am comfortable being outside of the movement.

 

[Photog]

Well, I am one of those old f**ts that grew up learing to shoot both pistol and rifle with open sights. The only change I have made is that some of my open sight pistols have "higher visibility" iron sights, Novak's for example. I have gone to receiver sights on my rifles. In my 60+ years of shooting have never had a set of iron sights fail me. Again, all me old fashioned, and maybe not to bright (pun intended), but the last gun that I had that needed batteries was a Buck Rogers Ray Gun.....

 

[sigp220.45]

Red dots are great, especially for older shooters. As our eyes age, optics can keep us on the range longer.

Like anything else, you have to be willing to learn and commit to maintenance. Somehow I remember to change my smoke detector batteries, so keeping my red dot running isn’t a big deal. Many police departments, including the one for which I do backgrounds, mandate optics on duty guns.

Of course this is a free country so feel free to sit this innovation out. You can wear spats, ride a bike with a giant front wheel, and watch TV with a rabbit ear antenna. Its all good.

As for me, count me in. Not all new stuff is bad, and not all old stuff is good.

 

[rockquarry]

Practice often and become a skilled shooter beyond closeup, unless your vision demands some sort of optical sight. Otherwise, iron sights offer no disadvantage and several advantages.

However, it seems some may use optical sights purely as gadgets to make up for a lack of skill and practice. Regrettably for them, it doesn't work that way. Use that which works best for you, improving your handgun shooting along the way.