Two more .380s, two more fails

"Most shooters don't seek training. 90% of the students I see wouldn't come if the law didn't require it. They've all been shooting for a long time and just don't need training because they already know how to shoot. Their targets disagree with their beliefs.

Y'all keep asking about what type of failures they were, does it matter? I mean, there was one shot followed by a problem. Failure to extract, eject, feed or whatever, are really all just failures to fire when needed. In this instance they were both failures to feed and one had multiple of those.


So which is it --- are they considered marksmen ?? or not ???

I don't want to speak for Rastoff, but I always took his point here as being these people think they know how to shoot because they've been pulling a trigger for so long, thus they refuse real training, and with real training their results would be much better. Rastoff may very well have a different position than the above, but that was my take from this thread, along with the position that he doesn't think any .380 ACP pistol is reliable, regardless of how much real training one receives with it. Apologies to Rastoff if I'm misunderstanding his position . . .

I ran across lots of shooters like that in my time with the Yankee Gov't. Most apologized to me after two or three weeks on the firing line. Of course, we weren't shooting .380 ACP . . .
 
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I own a number of .380 ACP handguns, mostly because I like them, not so much because I advocate carrying them.

I do however carry one as a back up from time to time and here are my observations on various models:

Kimber Micro

My Kimber Micro has been extremely reliable. I've put in the neighborhood of a 1000 rounds through it in the course of breaking it in and periodically expending aging carry ammo through ot for practice and it's experienced only 1 failure with my carry ammo. That's acceptable reliability for a semi-auto pistol.

My carry ammo uses a Hornady 90 gr XTP. The XTP series bullets are designed for moderate expansion and good penetration and they are a good choice in a marginal caliber like the .380 ACP. The 90 gr XTP will produce moderate expansion (a mushroom rather than the multiple spider legged looking expansion) and 12" of penetration, but the velocity window where they'll give that performance is narrow.

The positives are light weight, but with a felt recoil similar to the 30 oz all steel PPK/S, given the locked breech recoil system spreading the recoil out over a bit longer period of time. It doesn't feel as sharp as a blow back operated .380 pistol, even though the actual recoil numbers are higher in a lighter weight pistol.

The negative with the Kimber Micro is the short 2.75" barrel has difficulty driving a 90 gr XTP at the 1000-1050 fps it needs to expand with near 100% reliably in a heavy clothing test. You need to be careful in your load selection and chrono your loads.

An average of around 970 fps has been the best I've measured with a factory 90 gr XTP load (an there are four or so companies that load that bullet in their factory ammo). In base gel the expansion is near 100% reliable, while in a heavy clothing test you're looking at about 80% at 970 fps. Once you drop down around 870-900 fps, the heavy clothing expansion reliability falls to around 40% to 50% and you're effectively shooting FMJs half the time.

RIA Baby Rock and Kimber Micro:

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RIA Baby Rock

I bought one because it was cheap, and I had low expectations. It surprised me in almost every respect. It is as accurate as any other .380 Pistol I own. The 3.75" barrel has no problems hitting the velocity sweet spot for the 90 gr XTP, and it proved to be exceptionally reliable. It's also very comfortable and low profile to carry IWB, although it's on the long side for pocket carry.

It also has a 7 round magazine, one more than the PPK/S in .380 ACP, and the same as a Kimber Micro if you're using the finger grip extension magazine in the Kimber rather than the flush 6 round magazine.

It is lightly longer than the PPK/S, but it also has a 1/4" advantage in barrel length, and it's thinner than the PPK/S.

The downside is that it's blow back operated and at the same weight as a PPK/S, it shares the same sharp recoil as the PPK/S.

Now...given potential issues with QA and consistency, I won't assume that all of them are as accurate and reliable as mine, but I will say that RIA got mine exactly right and I carry it with none of the reservations i have with my other .380 ACP pistols.

Ranger made Walther PPK/S and RIA Baby Rock:

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Walther PPK/S

I've owned three of these over the years - two Interarms marked Ranger made examples, and a S&W made example. One of the Ranger made pistols is reliable enough to carry with Hornady 90 gr XTP (IMHO, at least 200 consecutive rounds with no failures). The other Ranger is near 100% reliable with FMJ but did not demonstrate my required standard of reliability with the Hornady 90 gr XTP although it does so with the 102 gr Golden Saber. The 102 gr GS is the .380 ACP hollow point I used to carry (it expands well but only penetrates about 9"-10").

The S&W was initially reliable with the 102 GS, but it started having fire control issues where it would drop the hammer prematurely, especially when doing a slow trigger pull. I also found the trigger would not engage the hammer at all in som orientations. A trip to the mother ship failed to fix the problem and I traded it off for one of the Rangers.

I also did not like the longer tang that S&W added. It's too long, and too sharp edged, causing it to dig in in IWB carry, becoming uncomfortable after a few hours and painful by the end of a long day.

One caveat to add here is that the PP series pistols are blow back operated, recoil is sharp with a .380 ACP self defense load, and the pistol needs to be held firmly and properly to give acceptable reliability. If someone is having a failure with FMJ quality rounds, I'm going to lay that on the shooter. Some shooters with large fleshy hands have issues with slide bite, but more often than not, with those large hand shooters, it's still an artifact of using a thumbs high grip that just isn't appropriate for the pistol.

I also own a pair of Manuhrin made Walther PPs in .32 ACP and they run like well oiled sewing machines with quality 71 gr FMJ, 60 gra silver tips or 60 gr XTPs. The silvertips expand very well but only give 8-10" of penetration while the 60 gr XTPs will mushroom nicely and give 12" at the same 1000-1050 fps velocity as their 90 gr , .380 ACP counterparts. The 3.9" barrel of the PP also gets them into that sweet spot.

The PP series pistols are far more pleasant to shoot in .32 ACP than they are in .380 ACP and you get an extra round in the magazine with the smaller round.

My point for discussing the PP in .32 ACP is that the PP series pistols were designed for .32 ACP and they seem to function more reliable with .32 ACP for most shooters, and I think a large part of that has to do with the lower recoil.

Ranger made PPK/S and S&W made PPK/S:

IMG_0007_zpsu85gtwjq.jpg


FEG AP9S and APK9S

These pistols are FEG clones of the PP and PPK/S, albeit with slightly heavier slides and grip frames as they were designed to accommodate 9x18 Makarov (in the AP9M and APK9M) as well as .380 ACP. They also make the AP7S and APK7S in .32 ACP/7.65 Browning.

They are steel frame pistols that are well made and very reliable. The chambers tend to be a bit more generous than their Walther counterparts and they'll feed a slightly over sized round that a Walther won't. On the flip side, they are also slightly less accurate, but are still more than accurate enough for self defense purposes.

Reliability is extremely good with FMJ with less picky preferences on the low cost end of the spectrum. Reliability with 90gr XTPs however is still mixed and pistol dependent. I have an AP9S that is reliable with it, and an APK9S that isn't.

The slightly larger grip frame and slightly heavier weight makes them slightly more pleasant to shoot than their Walther counterparts.

The fit and finish on the Interarms imported pistols is superb, while the fit and finish on the TGI imported pistols is only average.

FEG AP9S, APK9S and APK7S:

IMG_0003_zpsuaxawjia.jpg


FEG AP9S, APK7S and Walther PP pistols:

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FEG SMC

None of the positive comments I have for the AP series pistols apply to the SMC. It has the distinction of being the smallest semi-auto pistol imported since GCA 1968, and with an aluminum frame it's light weight as well as compact. It's just that mine isn't all that reliable with anything other than a few select loads of .380 FMJ.

S&W M&P Bodyguard

I bought of these because S&W had a special going on in the local shop and my cost out the door was $212. I bought it on Friday, shot it on Saturday and Sunday putting a few hundred rounds of several types of ammunition and I traded it off on Monday for a Star BM (even though I already had 2 of them).

I hated it that much.

It was not accurate and it was in no even remotely what I would define as reliable. The trigger pull was long, gritty and heavier than it needed to be with that length of pull. Hickock 45 did a review of one, and I lost a lot of respect for him when he stated he endorsed it after just doing a video with numerous failures to fire.

S&W may have made a few good ones, but mine was not one of them.

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I will comment on the concept of a "micro 9mm" pistol. Yes, you can get a Kimber Micro 9 or a similar sized Sig, however, I have yet to meet a person who shoots them really well or is willing to shoot them enough to get really good with them. They are too small to shoot really effectively, and IMHO, what you gain in terminal performance with the 9mm round, you lose in terms of poor bullet placement.

The smallest 9mm I carry is the CZ 2075 RAMI, as it's large enough to shoot really well, and yet still small enough to be very easy to conceal. The slight advantage in concealment with a Micro 9 (which is slightly longer than the Kimber Micro .380 here) isn't enough to offset the far better real work shooting performance of the CZ 2075 RAMI.

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The question I have, is...........

Did the weapons have the normal amount of "Break in Ammo"
run through them to work correctly and also cleaned/oiled?

Did the shooters test ammo, to find brands that fired and ejected
before picking their SD ammo?

I can understand a JHP not working but if they had ball ammo as their SD ammo..........
I too, would be worried about the .380 pistol, in use.

Sounds like not enough time at the range, to me.
 
I put a new barrel in this 104 year old Pocket Hammerless .380 when the original one turned out to be corroded beyond redemption.

Since then its has gone through 350 rounds of mixed ball without a single malfunction, even when the original Bakelite grips shattered in mid-string (earning it some snazzy new stags).

Should be good for another century.

(I know I mentioned it earlier in this thread, but I wanted to show off the grips.)

Nice old pistol; but those grips!!! OH MY :):)
 
So many replies I thought I’d just add to the longest thread I’ve seen in awhile save for picture threads..
380s.. I have a bunch. I shoot them for fun and most are over 50 years old some over 100. My 2 favorites are the CZ 24 from mid 1930s and my Savage Model 1917.
My wife shoots hers 380s seriously and carries a Sig P238. She is very good to scary good with that pistol. I have never seen it malfunction on her. Nor any of the 380s we shoot for fun malfunction that I can recall.
I did have my SA 1911 malfunction the other day. It didn’t feed the last round properly. Stove-piped. Go figure. Operator or the gun. It’s certainly no 380 ACP.
Rastoff.. understand your position and point of reference but I have to think that beginner shooters with new guns may be skewing your analysis.



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I carried LCP, government 380, and Glock 42.
I never hand any trouble.
I just change because of the ammo price in my country
 
The very short version is after 1 year, a good chunk of change spent on ammo, mags, springs, etc, 2 trips to the factory, a trip to a gunsmith, a second mustang replaced it, and finally Colt replaced it with a Defender straight up. I am not a believer of the mustang/P238 platform.
 

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The very short version is after 1 year, a good chunk of change spent on ammo, mags, springs, etc, 2 trips to the factory, a trip to a gunsmith, a second mustang replaced it, and finally Colt replaced it with a Defender straight up. I am not a believer of the mustang/P238 platform.

I debated buying a Sig P238, a Colt Mustang or a Kimber Micro. The research I did suggested Sig or Kimber, and not many folks had much good to say about the Colt.

I happy with my Kimber, it's been nearly flawless with my carry ammo (1 failure to go fully into battery with Hornady 90 gr XTP, in about 500 rounds total fired) and it's only had two failures with my practice ammo - hand loaded 90 grain plated bullets - also in about 500 rounds.

I've also had similar reliability with my surprisingly good at twice the price RIA Baby Rock. It has not failed at all with 90 gr XTPs and has only exhibited a couple failures to feed with low end FMJs and plated bullet handloads.

IMHO, it's not the platform it's the Colt Mustang that struggles.
 
Hundreds of rounds through my former BG380, zero malfunctions. Now I have a Kimber Micro 380. It works great. Zero malfunctions.
 
Rastoff.. understand your position and point of reference but I have to think that beginner shooters with new guns may be skewing your analysis.
If it were only beginners I would agree with you. However, I've had every skill level shoot .380Auto pistols and they've all had malfunctions.


Also, I think I need to clarify something. In the OP I said that I had an issue with the .380Auto round. That is a misnomer. The cartridge itself is adequate for self-defense. Not my first choice, but certainly serviceable. If it's fired from a revolver, I would have no issue. It's the guns that I doubt. They just don't seem to function well.

Based on the comments here, it must be me. Please, one of y'all that have had such good service from your .380Auto pistols please come and shoot it with me at the range. I'll buy your ammo if it works as flawlessly as you say.

I have another class this weekend. There will be at least one .380Auto there. Keep your fingers crossed.
 
I don't know, Rastoff. You must be generating some kind of 380 failure field or something.

3 P232s, a Glock 42 and a Beretta 84FS Cheetah. The only picky one was the Glock, and that was attributable to operator error. Daughter was limp wristing, but hey, she was 12 at the time. ;)
 
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Old S&W sigma and Glock 42. Never any issues with reliability once the ammo with the bullet length and shape that fed well with the feed ramp and power factor that worked with the recoil spring was provided.
Had a Glock 19 that would jam with Corbon 125gr+p all day. This was due to the longer length compared to Speer Gold Dot 124gr ammo (in this particular gun).
The problem I see is the ammo is not matched to the gun (Of a quality manufacturer) all else being equal (Gun cleaned/oiled,properly broken in, and NO operator error).Did I have reliability issues at first. Yes,but as mentioned above,this was solved with the right ammo.
In over 50 years of shooting,I have run into other issues like an underpowered recoil spring from the factory with hot loads etc..
In any gun or caliber the RIGHT ammo is the answer. JMO

Be SAFE and Shoot Often!
 
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OK, full disclosure...
Last weekend I had two .380Autos in a class and only one had a malfunction. I guess things are looking up.

The shooting was only 12 rounds.
The gun that worked was owned by a woman who had only fired it maybe 100 times.
The one that failed was owned by a guy that has a lot of experience and has extensive training.
 
I’ve been told I can roll my eyes out loud . . .

OK, full disclosure...
Last weekend I had two .380Autos in a class and only one had a malfunction. I guess things are looking up.

The shooting was only 12 rounds.
The gun that worked was owned by a woman who had only fired it maybe 100 times.
The one that failed was owned by a guy that has a lot of experience and has extensive training.
 
OK, full disclosure...
Last weekend I had two .380Autos in a class and only one had a malfunction. I guess things are looking up.

The shooting was only 12 rounds.
The gun that worked was owned by a woman who had only fired it maybe 100 times.
The one that failed was owned by a guy that has a lot of experience and has extensive training.

What brands and specific guns were they?
 
Because all pistols were not created equal . . .

(and you have created a theory that the only common thread is caliber. Your position has been consistent that all .380 ACP pistols are destined and even designed to malfunction, regardless of manufacturer)


Before I answer, why does it matter?
 
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I picked this guy up soon after the LCP II came out. It’s not my favorite gun but I carry it a lot out of necessity. I clean it regularly even if not shot, however I shoot it often. Often monthly. Usually just emptying the magazine when I pull into the driveway. I generally take it when I go shooting, and have put at least 500 rounds through it, carry and range ammo.

It passed my initial reliability testing and continues to function, so I’ll continue to carry it. I always put potential carry guns through a few hundred rounds of testing, most with my chosen carry ammo, before it gets into the rotation. Doesn’t matter the make, model, or caliber. Admittedly I put fewer test rounds through a revolver, but feeding isn’t an issue so I’m not as concerned.
 

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(and you have created a theory that the only common thread is caliber. Your position has been consistent that all .380 ACP pistols are destined and even designed to malfunction, regardless of manufacturer)
Not designed to malfunction, but I agree I'm saying they seem to be destined to.

All guns, in fact all mechanical devices no matter how simple, will fail at some point. The question here is, how soon? I still haven't seen a .380Auto pistol make it through 35 rounds without a failure.

I do believe that the gun manufacturers do their best to make the guns reliable. Alas, the round is relatively weak and that is a hurdle that manufactures must overcome.

I'm glad to hear that many here have had trouble free guns. I hope this is what most experience rather than what I've witnessed.
 
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