Two more .380s, two more fails

[Boudiepitbull]

I agree that without knowing the firearm and the choice of ammo it may be too broad a generalization to condemn .380 ACP across the board. Is this a complaint that centers more on the EZ 380? While it was never intended to be an EDC of mine, I acquired a Beretta 85FS and 500 rounds of Fiocchi .380 ACP 95 gr FMJ. While my life has not been dependent on it, so far everything cycles like it should. YMMV...

 

[Buford57]

While I would recommend a .38 snub to someone new to CC over a .380, they have a place. True, pocket 9s have shrunk. So have .380s, so that some are now little larger than the old vest pocket .25s.

My wife, an NRA pistol instructor, absconded with my Remington RM380 a couple years ago. By that time I had been carrying it for about a year. I do not trust a semi-auto of any size or caliber until it has digested 200 rounds of ball and 50 of SD ammo with no failures of any kind. Any failure = fix the problem, return to square one. I was putting 50 to 100 rounds through it each month. Zero failures of any kind. Locked breach, DAO, metal frame, 6+1.

When I was on the job I would have much preferred it to the High Standard .22 Mag derringer I carried as my "Onion Field" gun. Not much larger and 5 more rounds.

By the way, a month or two later when Remington announced a rebate I bought another. It ran the same way.

 

[Borderboss]

Perhaps in this debate, I can make a statement that we can all agree upon. That statement is: The AMT Backup was the biggest (actually smallest) piece of junk ever to be offered to the market.

I made the mistake of buying two of these at different times, apparently failing to recognize how much junk the first one was.

 

[78bagger]

At one time I bought a colt mustang pocketlight to use as a shorts in the summer gun. Right from the start it gave me problems and I switched back to the j frame while I worked it out. Soon became apparent that i was limp wristing occasionally and it took a lot of concentration to prevent it. I decided that on a bad day I might be preoccupied with not dying and may neglect my hold. Stayed with the mod 60 until I replaced it with a mod 442. I now have a sig 938 that is my deep concealment go to and have never had a ftf or fte with the 9mm.

 

[bigwheelzip]

I've no experience with those EZ's, or any other .380s for that matter, besides the one I own. After hubby and the LGS counterman recommended I get my first semi-auto, I bought the SIG P238 in Oct. 2014, because it was the only semi they had which I could comfortably operate the slide.

At least eight shooters (mostly female) have used it since it was new, and at least 1200 flawless rounds have gone through it. Perfectly dependable. A bit snappy of course, and fairly accurate for a subcompact as well.

The PCR is my EDC because it's the carry platform I shoot best with, but I'm happy with the just as dependable P238 as my primary backup when the wardrobe challenges.

 

[raljr1]

I have 2 colt pockelight DAO 380s...i have had some minor issues with each of them. FTFs mostly...not cheap guns either.

Robert

 

[Doug M.]

I have a Glock 42 that is still being tested. Once through the first 50 or so rounds, no problems with ball. Likewise, no problems with the Fiocchi 95(?) grain JHP. Sadly, the Black Hills Honey Badger has not been reliable, and unless this improves with more shooting of other ammo, I suspect it will not be an option. The .380 seems to really require hotter loads to cycle it right; I'm not utterly sure, but it seems that way, and that would be consistent with the Honey Badger feeling light.

 

[shouldazagged]

...Soon became apparent that i was limp wristing occasionally and it took a lot of concentration to prevent it. I decided that on a bad day I might be preoccupied with not dying and may neglect my hold. Stayed with the mod 60 until I replaced it with a mod 442...

That's a major point in the reason I've carried a revolver for over twenty years. It figures even larger now that my hands are old and very clumsy.

A while back I bought a Ruger LCP on the recommendation of friends. I found I was unable to rack the tiny slide, and the little bitty grip frame also didn't feel that easy to control for a follow-up shot. My son owns it now, and I'm sticking with a steel J-frame with Pachmayr Compacs and the FBI load.

 

[kbm6893]

Now that there are so many viable .9mm pistols that are almost the same size as the .380 autos of the past coupled with the fact that some if not most of the .380's are blow back instead of locked breach design, making them harder to manipulate the slide due to increased spring weight, it makes little sense to me as to why someone wants to carry a .380 over a 9mm which has a bunch more punch. In addition, .380 is harder to find in some cases and is more expensive to buy ammo for.

Show me a 9MM the same size and weight of an M&P Bodyguard .380 or a Ruger LCP.

Have my BG380 for two years now. Not a ton of rounds, maybe 400. But never a malfunction of any kind. And all I really shoot in it are my reloads.

 

[Oldfrt]

My wife has a 380 EZ, every failure to fire/load properly is directly related to her limp grip of the pistol. She wanted to get a 9mm, but there wasn't a single one she could operate, she can barely operate the 380. That's the reason I tried to get her to stay with a revolver, she has very few problems with them, but she insists on the near endless supply of ammo with a semi auto (I load the magazines at home).

 

[first-model]

I have at least 3,000 rounds through my Glock 42 and another thousand or so through my M&P EZ. I think I've had one stovepipe (in the 42, probably from me limp-writing) and one FTF (also in the 42).

I have no idea what cogent argument could be made to suggest that .380 ACP is less reliable than 9mm (or any other common defense round). It's been around forever and has been used in some extraordinarily successful pistols, and many police forces in Europe used it for decades.

Mike

 

[synchro]

I bought a 380 EZ for my wife. With age and RA it is the only pistol that
I can find that she can rack. She can Comfortably Operate and Fire it.
This was the Only criteria for the purchase. I have fired the pistol and
find the operation to be acceptable. Only 50 rounds of hardball so far but no failure of any type. This is the no safety model. I did remove
the slide when new and added a suitable lubricant to the slide.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

I don't think they are talking about the actual ammo itself.
Since the 380 is a relatively low pressure round, its often fired in open breech guns.
Some of these guns are, shall we say, of an inferior design and lower quality manufacturing than the locked breech 9 mm Parabellum higher pressure rounds.
Exceptions -Yabol
Detonics Pocket 9.
Unlocked 9mm Parabellum.
I had 2.
Had stronger springs than a dump truck!
Really hard to Jack that little rascal!
I don't have a 380.
If I bought one, Walther would be my first choice.

 

[imcrazy]

I rarely choose a .380 for defensive use but, when I do it's because I can't carry the bigger guns.. I'd rather have a .380 in my pocket that a 44 magnum in my truck... Also for those who lack the hand strength to run the slide on a 9mm the .380 is better than a .22LR..

 

[Rastoff]

What kind gun class only expends 12 rounds?

It's a concealed carry license class. The course of fire is required by law. The class is only 4 hours long and we have to teach the law, gun safety and the students must perform the course of fire with each gun they want on their license. In this class we had 7 students and 21 guns.

If you're seeing shooter induced malfunctions, shouldn't that be something that would be addressed in training?

Absolutely! As stated above, there just isn't time, I wish there was.

Most shooters don't seek training. 90% of the students I see wouldn't come if the law didn't require it. They've all been shooting for a long time and just don't need training because they already know how to shoot. Their targets disagree with their beliefs.

Y'all keep asking about what type of failures they were, does it matter? I mean, there was one shot followed by a problem. Failure to extract, eject, feed or whatever, are really all just failures to fire when needed. In this instance they were both failures to feed and one had multiple of those.

Both guns were Bersa Thunders.

The absolute most important aspect of a self-defense gun is functional reliability. I don't think that M29since14 meant that reliability wasn't important to him, just that he wasn't concerned about the reliability of the .380Auto because of his personal experience that his has been reliable. I believe him, but my experience has been different.

I really would like to see a .380Auto, any .380Auto, function reliably. Alas, it hasn't happened yet. Since I've seen thousands of guns in action, it's likely that I have seen a .380 work OK. But, in the last 4 years or so, I've been paying attention and in that time I don't remember a single one working as it should for self-defense. I thought this class would be different since we now only shoot 12 rounds. Apparently it was not to be.


For the record, the course of fire is new this year. Previously I was able to make my own course of fire and was able to provide some instruction. With the new requirement to shoot every gun on the license, there just isn't time.

 

[delcrossv]

Both guns were Bersa Thunders.

Well, there you have it.

 

[Tanners Owner]

I had a Browning BDA years ago, regretted selling it. Was very reliable.

 

[RGVshooter]

.

As proof of my skepticism, I've mentioned how many I've seen fail in person. In fact, I've stated that I've never seen one go 35 rounds without a failure.

This weekend saw no change for me. I had another class. Two students brought .380 Auto guns and both had at least one malfunction. The really sad part is the course of fire has changed and they only had to shoot 12 rounds. Even so, both had failures and one had multiple failures.

Well a couple things here... One, we're basing a decision that "380 is a unreliable round" on students shooting 380 pistols without taking into consideration a lot of other possible contributions such as hand position/grip, limp wristing, are they small pocket guns or larger frame guns? So many factors here. You can't just make a blanket statement that all 380's are unreliable after watching students shoot.


I carry a Beretta model 84. It has been ridiculously reliable. In fact, I cannot even recall the last time it had any failures. My daughter carries a Bersa Thunder 380. That pistol also has proven to be extremely reliable. But then, I've been shooting handguns for well over 35 years.

 

[sigp220.45]

I haven’t found my .380s to be any less reliable than other calibers. I have a late war 1934 Beretta that is rough as a cob but feeds everything I put in it. I carry a 104 year old Colt Pocket Hammerless that needed a new barrel but has zipped through 250 rounds in the last month without a bobble.

I think poorly trained shooters with cheap guns they probably don’t know how to handle (or maintain) would lead to quite a few malfunctions, regardless of caliber. Don’t guns of other calibers falter during this quickie class?

 

[kbm6893]

You said 90% of people wouldn’t even come to the class if they didn’t have to. I bet they also aren’t shooting decent ammo, and if their targets don’t reflect any skill, isn’t it likely the way they handle a gun is part of it?

Buy or beg a box of .380 and ask to shoot their weapons after they’ve malfunctioned. Wanna bet you have a different result? I’m a teacher now in retirement. I’ve reached into my own pocket a few times when necessary. Make it a teachable moment.

And I know some people like Bersa’s but I don’t think much of them. Especially since they’re bigger and heavier than many 9MM carry guns. My .380 is for absolute discreet carry when I can carry nothing else. I’m sure somebody has washed their LCP with the laundry when they forgot to check the pockets.