Unexpected .38 SA Acquisition -- NEW PICS

Joined
Dec 26, 2007
Messages
13,063
Reaction score
7,561
Location
Orange County, CA
I went to my usual range/LGS today to arrange a shipment and was blinded by this brilliant shorter-barrel (3 1/4") .38 SA 2nd Model on the Used Gun shelf. I looked it over, noted the click-snap tightness of the action and latch, found only the shallowest tiny scratches in the nickel, thought the price was reasonable for its condition -- and bought it on the spot.

The serial number is 50380; the same number is found on the appropriate parts in addition to the frame. There is no serial number on either cheek piece. The interior surfaces of the stocks show tiny radiating age cracks around the screw holes. There are no visible hairline cracks on the exteriors, but the right cheek piece has suffered a breakout at the bottom. The damage is confined to the plane of the frame's butt and does not affect the checking field. I thought at first I might attempt a repair, but have decided not to. The revolver has a history that it should be allowed to keep.


dcwilson-albums-antiques-picture23758-38-sa-2nd-r.jpg




dcwilson-albums-antiques-picture23759-38-sa-2nd-l.jpg



I initially guessed a date in the mid-1880s for this revolver, but the S&W historian informs me it was actually shipped in April, 1880.

Here us a photo of one cheek piece of the somewhat rare Type 2 hard rubber stocks mentioned in a post below.


dcwilson-albums-antiques-picture23760-38-sa-2nd-cheekpiecetype2.jpg



The frame, latch and cylinder are all numbered alike. Poor lighting makes the number on the underside of the latch illegible in this photo; only the first two digits on the frame are clearly visible, with the latter three digits lost in the shadow and unpolished surface of the part.


dcwilson-albums-antiques-picture23761-38sa-2nd-latch-cyl-numbers.jpg
.


With the frame broken open and the cylinder removed, we see the fixed spindle that holds the cylinder in position.


dcwilson-albums-antiques-picture23762-38sa-frame-open.jpg



The end of the spindle has a short, coarse thread onto which the cylinder is screwed until it reaches a position where the front face is up against the rear of the barrel and the cylinder is far enough forward that it clears the coarse thread and can spin freely. Removing the cylinder involves pulling it back and turning counterclockwise until it engages the course thread and backs off the spindle. One must lift the latch while removing or installing the cylinder, or the downward protrusion will contact and mark the surface of the cylinder.


dcwilson-albums-antiques-picture23763-38sa-cylinder-spindle-cu.jpg



Unfamiliar as I was with the action of the S&W SAs of the 1870s-1880s, I was surprised to find that the cylinder locks up only with the hammer at full cock or full forward rest. There is a half-cock position, which I think of as 1/16-cock because it is back from full forward by such a tiny amount. This position permits the cylinder to spin freely, which is a little surprising, but it also guarantees that the hammer nose will never protrude through the recoil shield without an intentional full cock and subsequent trigger release. With no need to leave a chamber empty under the resting hammer (though that practice is available for those who might not want a freely spinning cylinder on the gun in one's pocket), one could carry a full five rounds in this revolver.

I have a few specimens of tip-ups and top-breaks. This one is easily the best-preserved member of that group.
 
Last edited:
Register to hide this ad
. . . I have a ship date request in with the SWCA; until I get the report, I am guessing mid-1880s. Yes, I will shoot it someday just for the experience.

Very nice 38 SA, 2nd. I believe those stocks are very scarce and I have only seen one other set like them on a revolver. The old Expert Commentary I did on hard rubber stocks contains the following section for the 38 SA. The image of the three styles for this model is also shown below. I believe that that style was replaced by Gustave Young's intertwined S&W logo by the early 1880s. Of course the factory could have had a large inventory of the block print style stocks and so there was a transition from one to the other. I see you requested a ship date and that will be interesting to know.

The now familiar shape of the vintage S&W hard rubber stocks started with the 38 Single Action revolver in 1876. The 38 SA had three designs for the stocks. The first was S&W in block letters and a wide diamond and large area of checkering. The second style also had block letters, but the design below the top round looked like modern style stocks with the thinner diamond. The 2nd style were likely only made for a year or two around 1881 and are quite uncommon to find. Change-over to the third style intertwined S&W logo was done in the early 1880s and all 2nd Models after that date had the Young design that became standard on all revolvers.

attachment.php
 

Attachments

  • 2.jpg
    2.jpg
    23.5 KB · Views: 557
Thanks, Gary. I knew from the simpler S&W logo in the round that these stocks were "old style" without recalling much about the design history.

I flat-out didn't know that there were two styles with the simpler logo. In addition to the distinctive features you mentioned, I see that the logo in the second type uses an ampersand that is slightly smaller than the one in the first type.

After posting the revolver on Monday, I dug into the usual sources to give myself a quick history of the top-break single action revolvers. I now understand the one above was probably not shipped in the mid-1880s, as I first guessed, but possibly as early as 1880. That would be consistent the date for the Type 2 stock design you report.

I will try to get better overall pics and some detail shots up later today. I am delighted to learn that this well-preserved revolver is even more interesting for sporting an uncommon stock style.
 
Most of the 1st type stocks you see with the fat diamond and the large checkered area are seen on the Baby Russians. I have one early 2nd Model, #14,XXX that shipped in January 1878 with those first style stocks.

With S&W you never know and your gun may have shipped in the mid-1880s with leftover 2nd style stocks. Will have to wait for Roy to supply a date for the gun.
 
I learned from the S&W Historian that revolver in the top post was shipped in April 1880.

I'm hoping that tomorrow will provide me the time to produce the promised additional photos.
 
info

Mine shipped in Feb. of 1878, while it is in nice condition, it is not as nice as yours. Mine has some very light spotting & scratches, as well as some boogering on some screws. Action & lockup are tight, as well as all matching numbers. It is also unfired [since I bought it] sorry, couldn't resist.
 

Attachments

  • DSCF5532.jpg
    DSCF5532.jpg
    248 KB · Views: 59
  • DSCF5533.jpg
    DSCF5533.jpg
    273.6 KB · Views: 57
Last edited:
David that is a beauty ! I have a first model that looks almost that good, my second model has a bit more "character". They are fun to shoot, and do remarkably well at 7-10 yards.

What do you shoot in it? Handloads (recipe, if you don't mind posting), or commercial (brand & specifics) -- I just got one myself.
 
What do you shoot in it? Handloads (recipe, if you don't mind posting), or commercial (brand & specifics) -- I just got one myself.


I like H Richard's rule of thumb.

I haven't shot this yet and am not set up for handloading. I had it in mind that if I ever shot it, I would simply find the weakest modern load and try that. But prompted by your question to think a little more deeply about it, I realize the safe procedure will be to study the question in terms of 1880s steel strength and the pressures of the original black powder loads. That's now on my to-do list, but that document is already so long I may be worm food or trace air pollution before I get around to it.
 
I used one similar for CAS Pocket Pistol side matches, with factory loads or equivalent reloads. Five or ten rounds a month for a few years did not break or bend anything.

It was a great little gun, I would surely have wanted one to go to town with in its day. But those side matches told me that a double action was a better weapon. Lots of IJ, HR, and off brands in CAS and they were quicker to clean out a card table.
 
Last edited:
Always using a chrono, I load test rows of 5, with increasing amounts of powder and shoot until I get around 600 fps. Plenty fast enough for holes in paper and almost 100 fps slower than original BP loads. Missouri Bullets produces the original 145g LRN lead bullets that measure .361" and work great. When using loading data, I always start row 1 with 15% lower than minimum posted loads and work up to mid-range loads for all top-break calibers. Shooting over a chronograph, I work my way up the rows and stop at 600 fps. I then unload everything above that line. Unique is my preferred powder for the 38 S&W, but Trail Boss is another excellent option for reloading 38 S&W.

I have worked up around 20 loads over the years plus tested current and antique factory loads. Findings were that all factory loads tested ran in the 500s, while most minimum reload recipes average above 600fps. Black powder factory loads from the era averaged around 685fps, while a BP reload using 4F (original granulation for this cartridge) ran 720fps.

Here are the test results ran on a 38 Perfected 5":

145RN - 4F 14g - 720fps
145RN - Factory BP - Winchester Pre-1900 - 685fps
145RN - Factory BP - Winchester Post-1900 - 687fps
145RN – Factory - Remington - 537fps
145RN - Factory - PPU - 599fps
145RN - Factory - Winchester - 615fps
 
I was able to find some Magnum Research brand Ammo that equaled pressure exerted by the black powder ammo that was used in my 32 caliber top break. When I went shopping for 38 S&W I found that most brands did not exceed the power of the original loads.
Of course things have changed now - in shopping for ammo & absence of small market ammo available.
 
Back
Top