Unintended discharge with 9mm M&P Shield results in fatality.

[Well Armed]

Have you been drinking or something?

The whole point is to put enough rounds in the person they stop attacking. If an attacker manages to take a gun off you it should be despite being shot, not because you couldn't shoot.

No I have not been drinking anything. The statement was me playing the theoretical conjure game with you, but obviously it was lost on you and went way over your head.

The Teuller Drill.

There is a reason it is taught everywhere, and used in courts to demonstrate proximity Vs draw speed.

Go learn about it, go do the exercise then we can talk about having enough time to chamber a round.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwHYRBNc9r8

Remember, that's at 21 feet. At ten feet... ugh. 6... 5... 4...

That's also not someone just blindsiding you and getting the first blow in without you seeing it coming

The whole point behind "21 feet" exercise was to show that someone with a knife at an "assumed" safe distance could be a threat. It's used in courts as a defense to justify shooting an attacker armed with knife who is NOT within striking distance.

The studies on the matter have shown that even within this distance, you can be fatally wounded, disarmed, etc before you can get a shot off.

The recommendations that have stemmed from this study were to increase distance, use mobility, and not to only depend on a holstered firearm but instead train in edged-weapon defense or to have your firearm upholstered beforehand.

"At ten feet... ugh. 6... 5... 4...", At these ranges, you can be be stabbed multiple times, and it's extremely likely that your firearm can be taken before you get a shot off.

If you want to go statistics... have you ever broken down those statistics on "accidental discharges" (I put it with the punctuation because there is no such thing as an accidental discharge, only negligent)? What, for example is the most common calibre involved in injury or death? What kind of gun uses that calibre? Is it a defensive firearm calibre?

That's a good start in examining broad statistics before applying them to a specific grouping. For example... do hunters or target shooters have more ND's than CCW permit holders?

Stop arguing schematics. If I'm driving a car and unintentionally hit another car because I was texting, I had an "accident" because I wasn't paying attention therefore I was "negligent". If I hit a patch of ice that causes me to hit another car, I had an accident that was not my fault. How ever you want to phrase it, it was unintentional therefore it was an accident. Consequently and only for the sake of argument, if I take all the proper reasonable precautions and my gun still manages to drop from the holster and fire, then I had an accident, but was not negligent. With that said, there is such a thing as an accidental discharge that may or may not involve negligence.

Next, your going off on a tangent. I've seen, read, and heard of all the above having accidental/negligent discharges. I've seen target shooters disqualified for accidental/negligent discharges. The fact is that it's always a possibility. You may be able to lessen the probability, but that does not mean it can not and will not ever happen to you or anyone else for that matter. If it were not a possibility for gun owners/users, then why do hunters, target shooters, CCW permit holders, etc, regardless of experience level, all practice to always treat a gun as if it's loaded and to never point it at anyone? I mean, if they can never be "negligent" or have an "accident", why would it matter? You did not addressed this in your previous reply.

Then... what real world instances do you want? It's not rocket science to understand an arm will go up to block if someone tries to hit or stab you is it?

That's not a scenario, it's an example of the general rule of instinct. Something that's covered in any decent defense class. Scenario and example are two different things.

Show me something that proves this lol. I want to see proof that people who train will be unable to overcome this "instinct" you speak of. Here I thought that this was one of the whole point behind training do to anything.

Anyone thinking unloaded carry is a good idea really should go and do some force on force training and learn for themselves.
But of course, loaded or unloaded... it's your life, your decision.

It is a good idea. Citizens, police officers, and soldiers all have different environmental circumstances and risk factors. Police officers and soldiers are less likely to have their children gaining access to their firearms. Police officers and soldiers are more likely to encounter an attacker with a knife where as most citizens are going to flee the seen and call for law enforcement. When I, like many other CCW holders, carry all day long, my children are with me while I'm doing random task that most officers who are on duty would not be doing.

The likelihood of me ever having to use my firearm to defend my life is slim to none. The likelihood have of me having to defend my life while having a crazed, strung out knife wielding attacker charging at me full speed while I stand frozen watching in awe is even lower. The chance of me, a family member, or neighbor being wounded or killed via accidental/negligent discharge of a firearm I own is significantly higher.

Taking an extra safety step by carrying without a round in the chamber CAN be a good idea. In the end, everyone has to make the best decision for their particular circumstances. Telling someone else that the firearm safety step that they personally chosen and thought necessary to take to take is indefinitely being "irresponsible" is in fact an irresponsible statement IMHO...

Me, I do not go as far as carrying my firearm unchambered, but I insist on having a grip and/or external safety as a last ditch defense against the off chance the one of my children gain access to my gun. There are those on this board that will use the same argument/logic against safeties that you use against unchambered carry. When it's all said and done, I'm going to make the best choice for my situation, and I couldn't give any less of a damn about what some online tacticool trainer on youtube that is preparing for world war 3 has to say about it. I hope others do the same...

 

[EnticeTheMalice]

I would think it would take at least a couple of minutes for a 2 year old to unzip the holster and take the gun out point it and pull the trigger. If it had a safety (mine does) it would have been even harder for the 2 year old to do as the safety on mine takes some force to click off. It seems that the child had some time unobserved for this to happen and that is never good with a 2 year old. Gun or no gun.

What makes you think the kid was pointing the gun at her. In all likelihood she probably went to take it away from him and that's when it went off. Also just cause the kid is 2 doesn't mean he's incompetent and can't quickly open a zipper. 2 year Olds are smarter than you think and I'm willing to bet he knew the gun was there because he's probably seen her put it in the purse multiple times.

 

[Ranger17]

I'm too new to the shooting sports and self defense to be able to correctly make any statement on what is right or wrong though i am forming an opinion.
Not yet one who carries, i'll wait until i'd take defensive classes and training to determine what truly is best for me and my situation as far as carrying loaded (one in chamber) or not. On the home defense side though i do see valid points in both having my 9c loaded and ready to go but locked up, or unloaded & handy, etc (so my 2 yr old grandson cant stumble upon it here).
I may be wrong and apologize if I am, but seems the accidental shootings involving children (youth not teens) are those with loaded guns they are able to get their inquisitive hands on. So perhaps that is part of the answer to helping avoid this sort of tragedy; if a gun is to be left loaded it needs to be on the person who carries it (or under lock and key), and if a gun is to be stored or just set aside where children are present it should be unloaded. As kids grow up they can be taught about guns & safety, but i'll venture out and say many toddlers & grade school aged kids can take a curious chance on something even if told not to.

only thinking out loud here, as too often it seems to be a child that is at the end of the barrel and no child should be taken early regardless of the situation....

 

[Arik]

I'm still waiting for my CC permit so I have no experience carrying. However, given that the number of tragic accidental shootings seem to far out number the number of times one actually defeats a mortal threat with pistol, I've already decided to never carry with a round in the chamber. I'm willing to take the chance of dying because I couldn't respond quickly enough, rather than risk a tragic accident that I could regret for the rest of my life (of course that is assuming my death is not the tragedy.) I keep a loaded magazine (secured and locked with the pistol) near by, but it is not going in the pistol in my home unless I am dealing with a threat.

Bottom line is I want a firearm available, on short notice, for home defense or carry - but not instantaneously available at the risk of a tragedy.

Just my 2 cents.

How many times have you heard of this happening? Once or twice a year? Would you like people to start posting how many times it didn't happen each day? Personally I've been carrying since 2001 and have never had this happen. My friends carry and have never had this happen. None of our carry guns have any sort of safeties.

Since by your own words you don't want it instantaneously available you might as well save your money and don't buy one

 

[kannonvaggon]

A pistol is far more efficient as a weapon in immediate action when loaded with a chambered round. Period.
If a modern pistol with external safety is operated properly there is almost NO higher probability of an unintentional discharge than if the weapon had no round in the chamber at all.
The "calculus" does not prove itself beyond a theorem when confronted with fact.

I carried a single action revolver OWB for many years whilst riding horses or motorcycles. In THAT scenario I always carried on an empty chamber even though my Super Blackhawk had the "modern" transfer bar trigger safety. I never trusted the hammer strap to keep me from shooting myself or my horse if thick brush snapped the hammer the wrong way....
Probably not justified.... but I felt better on a dead chamber. Super fast draw and presentation was not all that high on my list out in the brush, but not shooting myself was VERY high on my list...

Not so much of a problem with a modern striker fired pistol with an external safety in a good kydex holster IWB .... JMHO

 

[whraven]

Same for me, the extra time to rack doesn't worry me as much as the potential for mistakes with a loaded chamber. I train to it, of course, so the reaction is habitual. Also, in a more slowly developing situation, the intimidating noise of racking the slide may make shooting unnecessary.

Not very likely, I suppose, but it is my personal preference. To each his own. Of course, if there's a chance of a situation developing quickly without my being aware of it, I'll carry one in the chamber.

 

[BE Mike]

I always carry. I carry with a round in the chamber. When there are going to be children around, all the guns in the house are either in direct control of an adult or are locked up. I cannot agree with carrying a handgun with an empty chamber, nor carrying a single-action derringer as a defensive handgun. There is no valid argument for keeping an empty chamber in a gun for self-defense. IMO, if someone doesn't trust him or herself with a handgun with a round chambered, then he or she doesn't have enough training. All that being said, not everyone should carry a handgun and not everyone should consider even owning a firearm of any kind.

 

[NJM15]

It happens more often than you think,recently a trooper was cleaning his handgun and it went off hitting his wife in the head killing her and locally a police officer shot himself in the leg drawing his weapon they usually don't like safetys

 

[EnticeTheMalice]

It happens more often than you think,recently a trooper was cleaning his handgun and it went off hitting his wife in the head killing her and locally a police officer shot himself in the leg drawing his weapon they usually don't like safetys

And often times cops are the least trained people with firearms I've ever met. You can only make a mechanical object that's been specifically designed to make killing things easier so idiot proof. At some point common sense and training needs to take over.

Carrying a weapon W/O a chambered round is pointless and you may as well be carrying a stick. Attacks happen so fast you won't have time to chamber a round. Heck you'll barely have enough time to defend yourself with a chambered firearm. I can see we have a lot of people that haven't been in any type of violent altercations and that aren't very street savvy. So I'll be blunt about it. If you carry a firearm that does not have a round in the chamber thats not ready to fire, you are asking to get yourself and those who may be with killed and if you choose to continue to be ignorant about it. You deserve whatever ill fate my befall you because you will end up as another statistic the anti gunners will use.


If George Zimmerman would have had to chamber a round before firing his weapon he most likely would have had it taken away before he could make it ready to fire. The only reason he survived that encounter was the fact that he was able to pull the trigger and make it go bang without any additional manipulation as soon as it cleared the holster.

I know one guy in this thread mentioned he practices chambering around when he draws his weapon. Let me ask you this. Do you train with someone trying to attack you? Do you train to draw and chamber your weapon with a larger stronger attacker ground and pounding your face? And before you say they wouldn't get you on the ground and that you would shoot them before that.... Guess what the real world ain't that simple. Also remember on the street the attacker has the element of surprise because only he knows when he'll attack.

I would recommend all the no round in the chamber folks go take a force on force training class. It will open your eyes to what people like myself know from real world dealings.

 

[Ranger17]

Not wanting to step on any toes at all, but I wonder how many who have a permit actually take proper training (and enough of it) to be both safe and responsible when carrying.
I'm sure there are those who are civilian only who do learn what they can, but also a # who sit in ccw class the couple hours, possibly take a shooting test (not required in all states), send in their payment, and are then able to carry a firearm.
I've been in ranges in a couple states now, watching someone who carries walk in, run thru just a couple mags worth not doing very well on the paper target, then leave. If they have trouble hitting where they aim on paper in a controlled environment, i can only imagine what they may run into if put in a real life or death situation. Guess that's why I wont yet carry until i feel I am ready, my .02 only of course.

 

[speedyquad]

i've gone with my father in law to his qualifying sessions(he was a member of a now defunct PA state police organization) where he had to qualify to the same standards as a PA state trooper. they only had to do this every 6 months if i remember correctly. many of them only shoot on the days they qualify and on the very first time that i shot my first handgun, i had better groupings than many of those qualifying.

i guess what i am saying is, who is to say what is enough training.

 

[Muss Muggins]

A pistol is far more efficient as a weapon in immediate action when loaded with a chambered round. Period.
If a modern pistol with external safety is operated properly there is almost NO higher probability of an unintentional discharge than if the weapon had no round in the chamber at all.
The "calculus" does not prove itself beyond a theorem when confronted with fact.

I carried a single action revolver OWB for many years whilst riding horses or motorcycles. In THAT scenario I always carried on an empty chamber even though my Super Blackhawk had the "modern" transfer bar trigger safety. I never trusted the hammer strap to keep me from shooting myself or my horse if thick brush snapped the hammer the wrong way....
Probably not justified.... but I felt better on a dead chamber. Super fast draw and presentation was not all that high on my list out in the brush, but not shooting myself was VERY high on my list...

Not so much of a problem with a modern striker fired pistol with an external safety in a good kydex holster IWB .... JMHO

But your single action revolver is ready to fire with an empty cylinder under the hammer. When you thumb the hammer back, which you have to do to prepare to fire, the cylinder rotates, and a chamber with a live round moves into firing position. This would be true regardless of what was or wasn't in the cylinder before you thumb the hammer back . . . Completely different scenario than carrying a semiautomatic with an empty chamber, unless the chamber next to the chamber immediately under the hammer is also empty. Then we're closer to talking about the same thing . . .

 

[CaptRon956]

Not wanting to step on any toes at all, but I wonder how many who have a permit actually take proper training (and enough of it) to be both safe and responsible when carrying.
I'm sure there are those who are civilian only who do learn what they can, but also a # who sit in ccw class the couple hours, possibly take a shooting test (not required in all states), send in their payment, and are then able to carry a firearm.
I've been in ranges in a couple states now, watching someone who carries walk in, run thru just a couple mags worth not doing very well on the paper target, then leave. If they have trouble hitting where they aim on paper in a controlled environment, i can only imagine what they may run into if put in a real life or death situation. Guess that's why I wont yet carry until i feel I am ready, my .02 only of course.

I've been shooting since the early 90's, put in at least 1-2 hours a week at the range, just for enjoyment & hobby. Last month I finally decided to get my CCW and since then I have been putting in 2-4 hrs a week at the range... Gun ownership to me at least is a 24/7 lifetime responsibility and if you're going to carry a pistol with the intention of saving your life then you owe it to yourself & to socieity to be proficient with it. There are legal ramifications if you discharge a weapon and hit a third innocent party, even if it was justified self defense, you can still get into a lot of trouble......Practice, practice, practice....

 

[armenius]

Well,it wasn't a Glock as many had assumed.
Very bad preventable accident.I feel for the motherless infant.

 

[PastureOfMuppets]

Show me something that proves this lol. I want to see proof that people who train will be unable to overcome this "instinct" you speak of. Here I thought that this was one of the whole point behind training do to anything.

I'm not going to go through the whole thing, this is enough to demonstrate how far off the page you are with me here.

The instinct to block an attack is not something to overcome, far from it. Why would you not block? If you take training and aren't taught to use your bodies natural reactions then it's bad training.

The point is, while that hand is blocking, that hand is not able to rack the slide of a firearm.

That's the whole damn point.

There you are, one hand is trying to fend off an attacker and the other one pulling an unloaded gun that can't be discharged into the attacker because it's... unloaded.

Or do you plan to let someone beat you over the head or stab you in a race to see if you become unconscious, grievously hurt or dead before you can rack the slide?


The Tueller drill is used in training to demonstrate how fast an attack can come from pretty much nowhere and how hard it is to get the gun out and into play with shots on target. It's also used as a way to induce pressure into students to get them to improve coping with it.

Add racking the slide into the mix... doesn't really work.

 

[UncaGrunny]

Matter of fact, those who are making up all these scenarios have yet to supply any statistics or cite any real world instances. It's all theoretical.

Ask George Zimmerman.

It's possible to ask him only because he did NOT have to load or cycle before he had to fire, in the process of blacking out & being beaten to death.

Real
World
Instance.

 

[Deadeye Dick]

You may as well carry a rock around in your pocket if you carry your pistol with an unloaded chamber. Even with a loaded chamber you had better be alert and prepared to fend off an attack with your off hand in order to buy time to get your gun into play.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_KJ1R2PCMM

 

[Deadeye Dick]

Pertaining to the original subject, i.e.; the shooting of this young mother by her 2 year old. First of all I am not a big proponent of off body carry. However I do understand the challenges most women face with on body concealed carry.

That said the mom in question made a grievous mistake by leaving her purse with her gun in it unattended even for a moment. It should have been on her shoulder at all times and never should have been in the cart with the child period.

I'm not saying this to be ugly toward the mom, all people make mistakes. I feel very sorry for the family and they are in my prayers. Hopefully we (society) can learn a useful lesson from this incident. And that lesson should not be that guns are evil, like the media would have us believe, but that they require proper respect and due diligence if you choose to own/carry them.

 

[TheBob_1]

There is almost NO way to have an accidental discharge if your pistol is properly handled and managed even in extreme circumstance.

Key word above is "almost". Accidents happen in life no matter how many precautions are taken. To err is human, and we are all humans.

I am SO done with people saying, "Keep your finger off the trigger and you'll never have an AD". Nonsense! There are so many scenarios, e.g. - stuck clothing, startling under stress, slippage, etc. that can cause a trigger to get pulled. You (kannovaggen) didn't make this claim, but I'm just taking the chance here based on your similar statement to point out that being ever-vigilant will eliminate a lot of AD's, but not all. God bless this family who bears an unimaginable lifelong burden due to a busy/distracted Mom, regardless of "excusability".

 

[TruckinThumper]

What if the mother had crashed her car, would these same types of statements be made?

Probably not.

As a matter of fact, I bet this thread would not exist.

People do dumb things, it is the nature of life. So be it.