Unnecessarily pulling extractor - Just dont, this is why

[BMCM]

Ahoy there shipmates,

I have a couple pistols on the healing bench sent by two of our members for post purchase inspection & service. One is a M745 and the other a M1006.

Upon examination, both guns had some problems with the extractor, or more to the point, someone was mucking about with the extractor when they ought not have been.

So lets have a look at the M1006 first since that was the easy fix.

This is the extractor that was pinned on the gun when I got it. You may note the tail of the extractor is bent outward by about 5° or so such that the spring exerted no force and the hook would not reach a 10mm case extractor groove.

How that got bent I have no idea, The only thing I could think of is perhaps a case that had been reloaded one time too many finally let go. There was no marring on the slide's exterior that might point to prying on the extractor. Aside from that, I have a pretty good sense for how the slide got beat up on the inside like we see here...

I see a partly missed blow with some kind of punch that smacked the bottom of the slide rail. Peening of the slide rails inward on either side of the semi circular relief cut. Looks like some effort was made to sand or file smooth the damage, presumably from hammer strikes.

There was also some raised burs at the pin bore on the inside high enough to rub on the frame rail. I went in there with a 3/16 carbide radius edge end mill and recessed the pin bore about 0.025".

Fortunately the seller supplied a new extractor & pin with the gun so it was a simple matter to fit the new extractor.

That was the easy fix, now lets have a peek at the M745 shall we?

Notice anything odd here?

Yeah typically you'd see the end of the pin about flush with the top of the pin bore there. Now if we flip the slide over and check the underside Oh that's no good at all. Pin sticking up proud of the pin bore enough to rub or bind on the frame rail.

The other thing, that doesn't look like a factory S&W pin to me. The factory pins are beveled on the ends, this one has a slight radius end.

And worse when I went to bump the pin flush all it took was light hand pressure to push the pin in.

And when I flip the slide upright again the pin is still waaay down in the bore. This is not the correct pin I say.

Easy enough to remove the pin, I can just poke it out by hand Checking with the mic and it comes is at 0.0795 which is about right for an oversize 5/64" pin.

Here alongside a new factory pin you can see the one in the gun was short. 1/2" pin in the gun while the OEM pin is a 9/16

Maybe the factory pin will fit snug and I missed something Yeah... Nope I could poke that new pin clean through too.

So now we need to come up with something that will fit tight and secure in that now oversized pin bore. The extractor pin is a tight interference fit in the slide. Pin bore is nominally 5/64" to take an oversized 5/64 x 9/16 dowel pin. I can't go oversize because the limiting factor is the bore in the extractor itself. That needs to be loose in order to freely pivot about the pin for the extractor to function. Were I to go with a bigger pin it can bind in the extractor bore and cause malfunctions.

So, I ordered up a bag of these guys...

Yeah looks like another pin... so what Ahh not so fast, when you look at the end it's a tad different...

These are the heavy duty version of 5/64 x 9/16 coil pins. 420 stainless steel with a shear strength of 800 pounds. I think this will do.

These will grip tight in a pin bore ranging from 0.077" to 0.082"
Test fit in the extractor and I could just barely start the pin in the extractor bore. Not to worry though, when installed the pin diameter will shrink to fit the slide pin bore so should loosen on the extractor.

Had to tap on it to get it started into the slide...

And with punch & hammer it's in...

Pin fit is tight and the extractor pivots freely. Pulls just a tad over 5lb on the gauge

Not exactly a factory repair in all respects but I think this old M745 will be good to go now for decades to come. You may also note that many modern self loaders with external extractors are using these same type coil pins instead of solid dowel pins.

Merely me speculating but I think driving in the non beveled end on that non standard pin might have been what enlarged the pin bore. Beyond that, remember this is a tight interference fit which means the more that pin is driven in and out of the bore the larger the bore is liable to become eventually becoming too loose to hold the pin fixed. This is not something you want to be taking apart in the course of routine maintenance. Any junk or goo that accumulates under the extractor can be blasted outa there without taking anything apart. I favor CRC's brake parts cleaner in the big red can. Stick the straw right near the extractor tail and squirt the solvent under the extractor towards the breech. And don't gob oil all over the extractor, it doesn't need any and that lube just accumulates junk.

That is all. I need to finish cleaning this M745 and get it ready to go home.

Cheers
Bill

 

[cherrypointmarine]

Alright , for those that know me , that's my 745 . I bought it because I have 2 of the IPSC ones and wanted a plain 745 . I never shot it , it sat in my safe until Bill was ready for it .

I daresay if I would have given it to any other gunsmith , it probably would have come back in worse shape . It's nice to know we have an artist that knows our S&W's like no one else , at least as far as I know .

And do me a favor Bill , don't retire anytime soon . I have quite a few more projects for you to tackle . Hopefully none in this bad of shape .

 

[BMCM]

Hopefully none in this bad of shape .

Bad shape? Nah, just needed a little TLC and a few new bits...

That was some old Winchester Super-Match 200gr JSWC I had laying around. Flyer was all me not the gun

Cheers
Bill

 

[vigil617]

Bill, let me just say that your choice of using that coil pin to fix Mike's gun was inspired. As my daddy would have said, "Son, you got a head on you like a Budweiser beer!"

For those who might not know, what Bill did here was make an ingenious and relatively inexpensive fix for a very thorny problem. I can't think of another solution that would so easily, reliably, and economically have solved the issue of the oversized holes here. At the very least, it would have involved Bill choosing an appropriately strong and hard stainless steel, turning a new pin correctly sized for the hole, and keeping a tolerance in the ten-thousandths of an inch in doing so. Probably would have involved trial-and-error fitting to obtain the desired result, and thus a lot of bench time to have to charge for the repair.

Instead, by using a stock manufactured industrial component, he solved all the issues in one fell swoop!

Lemonade out of lemons, I say, and another example of the really solid thinking and experience of a master craftsman. Kudos, Master Chief!

 

[flagman1776]

Thank you for educating us all. Your posts are always enlightening.
Thanks doesn't seem like enough.

 

[GaryS]

I read the 745 repair section a couple of times, and I think I understand what you did. The hole in the extractor itself is just a little bit bigger than the holes in slide, correct? So, the pin fits tight in the slide, but the extractor is free to pivot around the pin.

The coiled pin fits tightly in the oversized holes, but is kept compressed enough so that it doesn't impede the movement of the extractor.

If my understanding is correct, your fix is brilliant. Well, even if my understanding isn't correct, your fix is brilliant.

 

[Fastbolt]

FWIW, at my final 3rd gen armorer recert the instructor said that if the 3rd gen's had remained in production longer, they had considered changing over from solid to roll pins for the extractor pins. He said they had already made a list of the right substitution roll pins for the 3rd gen's, but that was the last I'd ever heard of such a list, as the 3rd gen's were shortly thereafter phased out and made obsolete. I should've called right away when told about it and found the guy with the list, dammit.

Roll and coil pins can be handy things, as some gun makers have discovered.

 

[Fastbolt]

...

Pin fit is tight and the extractor pivots freely. Pulls just a tad over 5lb on the gauge

...

The normal range for the .45's is 5 - 6 1/2lbs for extractor spring force, so that's within spec as long as normal extraction is still occurring. (Same thing listed in your manual, no doubt.)

In earlier days there were 3 extractor springs listed for the .45/10 guns, being Standard, Heavy & Extra Heavy. The last time I managed to get someone to send me some spare .45 springs, I received only 2 types, unlabeled, which I presume were standard and heavy. (Or, at least the ones commonly needed to put any particular .45 extractor within the needed spec range for "weight" as measured on the dial gauge.)

Wanted to ask you a question ...

I've never had the chance to come across one myself, but many years ago we were told that fitting an extractor for the early .45's might mean not only having to file the adjustment pad on the front of an extractor, but also one located on the tail of some older .45 extractors. Have you ever come across one with the extra adjustment pad on the inside of the tail?

FWIW, we were told this at the same time it was discussed how some of the early "69" series might have the extractors fitted by filing off space on the inside of the end of the tail to adjust spring tension, but that it was preferable to find the right spring to obtain the correct spring weight, instead.

I could see how thinning the steel of the tail might reduce strength and make it more susceptible to being bent under the wrong conditions.

I should have asked more detailed questions during my classes and calls to the factory back then.

I remember talking to one of the senior techs once when trying to address a suspected spec issue for the extractor cut in a 6906 slide. The tech finally suggested that he send me a specific carbon steel extractor for their 909 model. He said that specific extractor had a longer hook reach than other 9mm extractors, even when the adjustment pad was properly fitted to a particular slide using the bar and flag gauges. One of those "Hmmm" things I'd never heard mentioned in the classes.

 

[Fastbolt]

Damn, BMCM, I just remembered that I still have that extra bunch of LH .45/10 3rg gen mag catch bodies. You still want them?

 

[BMCM]

The normal range for the .45's is 5 - 6 1/2lbs for extractor spring force, so that's within spec as long as normal extraction is still occurring. (Same thing listed in your manual, no doubt.)

Well I didn't test it with a range of different loads just used some stuff I had appropriate to this guns intended use... it ran just fine with the WW Super Match 200s

In earlier days there were 3 extractor springs listed for the .45/10 guns, being Standard, Heavy & Extra Heavy. The last time I managed to get someone to send me some spare .45 springs, I received only 2 types, unlabeled, which I presume were standard and heavy. (Or, at least the ones commonly needed to put any particular .45 extractor within the needed spec range for "weight" as measured on the dial gauge.)

These days I think were relegated to a one size fits all spring. Unless I can get a knowledgeable fellow in Pistol Repair to go rummage through a drawer for me, I am relegated to using a Wolff XP spring if I need to bump up the tension. Or I'll stick some shims under the spring in the bore. I had a discussion with a Gent in Pistol Repair some years ago about extraction issues with in 10mm chamberings and he told me when they have a gun with erratic or troublesome extraction, shimming under the spring to get the tension right at the upper end of the range eliminated the faults. I keep a bunch of these shims in several thicknesses on hand just for that...

Wanted to ask you a question ...

I've never had the chance to come across one myself, but many years ago we were told that fitting an extractor for the early .45's might mean not only having to file the adjustment pad on the front of an extractor, but also one located on the tail of some older .45 extractors. Have you ever come across one with the extra adjustment pad on the inside of the tail?

I have one of those in the parts bin...

The surface texture on the sides looks like the stock came right off the rolling mill before cutting to length and machining into this form.

This was fit to a slide at some point as I see obvious file marks on the adjustment pad up by the hook and looks like the aft pad has been stoned a bit or maybe cut on a surface grinder en mass.

FWIW, we were told this at the same time it was discussed how some of the early "69" series might have the extractors fitted by filing off space on the inside of the end of the tail to adjust spring tension, but that it was preferable to find the right spring to obtain the correct spring weight, instead.

I could see how thinning the steel of the tail might reduce strength and make it more susceptible to being bent under the wrong conditions.

That seems odd to me. Why file on the more costly part? If you need to file the tail get the tension within range that tells me you have too much spring in there and the tension is above the spec'd range. That's almost like telling you to cut the spring bore deeper in the slide to adjust tension

Instead of weakening the extractor I'd look to the spring itself. The springs are closed coil with ground ends so if a lighter weight spring could not be had I'd grind or stone the closed ends a bit more. Effectively shortening the spring a little at a time, install check rinse & repeat until in spec.

Cheers
Bill

 

[BMCM]

Oh and the repair pin I used...

Searched all the regular industrial supply houses... McMaster had the HD but not in the right size, MSC was no help, nothing on Amazon but... Grainger had what I was looking for.

It's Item # 41LZ27. Only trouble is you can't buy just one unless it's one bag of a hundred

Here's the link where to get them...
FABORY Stainless Steel Coiled Spring Pin, 9'/'16" - 41LZ27'|'U51431.007.0056 - Grainger

If you find yourself in need of a repair pin but don't want to but a sackful of 'em send me a PM.

Cheers
Bill

 

[Fastbolt]

Well I didn't test it with a range of different loads just used some stuff I had appropriate to this guns intended use... it ran just fine with the WW Super Match 200s



These days I think were relegated to a one size fits all spring. Unless I can get a knowledgeable fellow in Pistol Repair to go rummage through a drawer for me, I am relegated to using a Wolff XP spring if I need to bump up the tension. Or I'll stick some shims under the spring in the bore. I had a discussion with a Gent in Pistol Repair some years ago about extraction issues with in 10mm chamberings and he told me when they have a gun with erratic or troublesome extraction, shimming under the spring to get the tension right at the upper end of the range eliminated the faults. I keep a bunch of these shims in several thicknesses on hand just for that...

Wanted to ask you a question ...



I have one of those in the parts bin...

The surface texture on the sides looks like the stock came right off the rolling mill before cutting to length and machining into this form.

This was fit to a slide at some point as I see obvious file marks on the adjustment pad up by the hook and looks like the aft pad has been stoned a bit or maybe cut on a surface grinder en mass.

That seems odd to me. Why file on the more costly part? If you need to file the tail get the tension within range that tells me you have too much spring in there and the tension is above the spec'd range. That's almost like telling you to cut the spring bore deeper in the slide to adjust tension

Instead of weakening the extractor I'd look to the spring itself. The springs are closed coil with ground ends so if a lighter weight spring could not be had I'd grind or stone the closed ends a bit more. Effectively shortening the spring a little at a time, install check rinse & repeat until in spec.

Cheers
Bill

Yeah, I figured if it was going to be a softball match-load gun the lighter end of the range is where you'd be happy to start.

Thanks for the pic of the old .45 extractor. I just never had the chance to come across one.

Cutting (filing) into the tail of the extractor, like they explained might be needed for an older 69-series gun, would seem to be less preferable to just finding the right spring. (At least they clearly said it was preferable to find the right spring. ) Especially considering they gave us a list of at least 8+ different extractor spring part numbers, as well as the original "repair" nested set.

Yep, that same guy in pistol repair is the guy who rummaged and found me those .45 extractor springs. The normal LE contact and parts people said they were all gone, so that guy in Repair was the last resort.

I never had to work on any 10's, so I never put away any shims. If I ever get one, and it involves a difficult under-sprung issue that can't be resolved with the springs I have, I'll contact you to ask about a shim.

BTW, one time when I was discussing the original need to create that nested extractor spring set with a guy in repair, he said that sometimes it was because the older hand-operated machining equipment that bore the spring hole might've had a dull cutter, and the bottom cut of the hole was too rounded to let the standard size springs sit flat. So, a reduced tension regular size spring was used, coupled with the older narrow spring, nested in inside it, to bump up the tension. He said that repair kit of nested springs had been created for field armorers, as the regular way for a factory tech to correct the machining problem with the spring hole (if it had occurred) was to use a hand-turned end mill (1/8"?) and dress the bottom edges to make them flat.

The thing we were warned about in using the nested repair spring set was that it would increase the "weight" above the standard recommended range, which was okay unless bench checks - and then live-fire testing - showed the heavier tension created the opposite problem, meaning being too heavy for feeding.

A couple of other armorers and I had to use that older nested set on a few guns as they aged with heavy wear and had chipped extractors occur (including our own issued early production 5903's). In the ones I remember, the normal range of 4-8lbs (for the older bolt/breech face cut double stack 9's) ended up being bumped up to 12-13lbs before normal feeding and extraction was achieved. That was only a pound or two above the newer spring weights listed for the straight cut bolt/breech faces, of 7-11lbs, but the factory said that wasn't unexpected with some of the older machining used on the older guns, and just to carefully do the normal bench/gauge & Dummy round checks and then confirm normal live-fire function with our duty ammo. Those were interesting days, as there was a lot more fitting, filing and spring juggling needed at times.

A particular 6906 that needed a new extractor spring couldn't be put within normal spec using either the nested set or the Wolff extra-power springs for S&W extractors. They were all too heavy. I finally used one of the standard size optional springs and got a good reading, and normal functioning. It was one of the 2 optional repair springs that replaced the nested kit.

 

[BMCM]

Damn, BMCM, I just remembered that I still have that extra bunch of LH .45/10 3rg gen mag catch bodies. You still want them?

Huh, I forgot about that too. Sure, I'll take 'em

Cheers
Bill

 

[Fastbolt]

Huh, I forgot about that too. Sure, I'll take 'em

Cheers
Bill

I found them in a box while reorganizing one of my parts cabinet drawers.

Still the same address you sent me from 2017?

 

[BMCM]

Yup, same place, thanks.

 

[BMCM]

I found them in a box while reorganizing one of my parts cabinet drawers.

Speaking of finding stuff in boxes...I just found two more of those early 45 extractors.

These two are brand new never fitted, here's a pic...

Cheers
Bill

 

[Bob L]

Thanks Guys!! I love how much information is shared on this forum!

 

[TercGen]

Outstanding work, as usual BMCM! So glad that you are not only doing the work to keep our fabulous S&W 3rd Gens alive, but also sharing how you do so! This will help folks for long after you decide to hang things up personally (which I hope is no time soon... ).

I personally love to tinker with my 3rd Gens, but have never messed with the extractors. God willing, I will stay lucky and never run into a problem with them, but if I do, you are definitely the guy I'm contacting.

 

[18DAI]

Fastbolt I recently saw a LNIB 3914DAO that was for sale. I noticed it was a Houlton production gun (2012) and had a roll pin holding in the extractor. First one I have come across. Regards 18DAI

 

[Fastbolt]

Fastbolt I recently saw a LNIB 3914DAO that was for sale. I noticed it was a Houlton production gun (2012) and had a roll pin holding in the extractor. First one I have come across. Regards 18DAI

Interesting. Not surprising, but interesting.

Maybe I'll try to call that last of the old contacts I know and see if he has the solid/roll pin list (presuming he hasn't retired by now).

Comes to that, I'd be interested in seeing if it matters whether the slide has the older slightly tapered extractor pin hole. (Smaller/tighter in the top half of the hole.)

They stopped including the tapered needle reamer tools in the armorer tool kits and discussing them in the classes at one point. They originally told armorers to insert them into the extractor pin holes from the bottom, and hand-turn them to clean out any burrs that might be left in the older machined slides, but they also cautioned against getting too exuberant with the reamers and enlarging the holes.

I remember seeing one older production .45 where there were some noticeably visible small steel "slivers" sticking up out of the top of the extractor pin hole in the slide, caught between the solid pin and the inside of the pin hole, around the top of the pin. Looked nasty. That was a gun belonging to someone else, showed to me by a gunsmith I knew, so it wasn't a gun I was responsible to maintain.

I have enough solid extractor pins set aside to repair any of my own guns, should I ever need to replace a pin (not common), and maybe a gun or two of a couple of my friends who retired and carry 3rd gen's. Some of those "just in case" parts I occasionally ordered to put back over the years as I was topping off my parts kits.

It wouldn't be bad to know the specific roll pins the engineers determined to be good, though.