Use of force protecting property

[OldeTSgt]

Okay before I start this discussion I live in Texas and we have a Castle Doctrine

This morning I found my beautiful little palomino filly (14 months old) dead in her pen - we checked her out and found she had a small gunshot wound (17 or 22 cal) above her left eye - we have a rough idea when it happened

Around 9:30 pm our kennel dogs started raising hell (we can hear them from the house) but we thought it was the guy that rents the small house next to our kennel coming home - my wife said she heard gunshots (small caliber)

The scene shows that someone pulled in close to the pen - grass was laid down and this would be the perfect place to fire the shot - our filly was friendly and often would stand in that corner of the horse pen and hang her head over it - we believe that someone probably jack lighted her to make the shot.

Had I seen this I could have blocked the way out (only one road behind the pen) and had I done so - calling the police while I blocked the road - would this be okay - keeping my pistol out and hidden by the door frame in case he tried to ram my vehicle or otherwise tried to escape - on the right of the road is the horse pen on the left is a deep tank - hence why they had to turn around in the 20 or so feet from the road to the fence in the horse corral.

We waited to see for a hour or so in case they came back tonight - I have 3 other horses in the corral. In order to get to where we believe the shot was fired they have to come down a gravel road about 300 ft or so - so this is impossible for it to be an "accidental" shooting trying to poach a deer or something

 

[bulrid8]

Block the driveway? Sorry, they would be shot dead on sight. Castle doctrine means you can use nessecery force to protect life and property. Someone shooting your livestock means lethal force is used.

 

[LAWMAN662]

911 my ***.......................1911 for sure!

 

[k20350]

I actually sat on a jury in MI dealing with not the same thing but the same argument was made. The Judge informed us that there was absolutely NO STATUTE IN MICHIGAN FOR DEFENSE OF PROPERTY!!!! After the trial he spoke with us and asked if we had any questions. Explained that destruction of your personal property is a matter for civil court. U can't attack/accost someone for damaging your property. (This was damage to a vehicle and a fight ensued). Now seeing as your horse was shot i'm sure there were laws broken (In the laws eyes a criminal/police matter). Even castle doctrine is for defense of yours and others (HUMAN) lives. Yours and others states may vary. Now if said horse killer turned gun on you then it's fair game while they are on your property. I guess what I am saying and very poorly is u can't shoot someone for destroying your property. It is a police matter criminal wise and a civil matter money wise. DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT A LAWYER NOR HAVE EVER PLAYED ONE IN A MOVIE

 

[Arik]

Not sure what central Texas looks like but I'd be up on my roof with a flood light and something in 30 cal with at least a 08 behind it. A whole bunch of nails up and down the driveway wouldn't hurt but I live alone so I'd know where not to drive.

Seriously though I'd have motion activated flood lights up the driveway but still be up with something that means business even in Africa. A 375H&H up the tail pipe will get the point across

To me it sounds like a bunch of doofus' looking to kill something for a good time.

 

[Rustyt1953]

I'm sorry for the heartache, the anger and the edginess of knowing someone is out there, with a gun, capable of doing it again.

It is, as you say, your castle. Use every tool at your disposal to protect you and yours.

I pray he's caught.

 

[murphydog]

Sorry for your loss. I was going to ask if you filed a report with the local police but you may be the local police...

Short of having evidence as to who committed the crime, it seems your only recourse is more security measures, like lighting and cameras. I don't know TX law in this regard but a legal opinion is probably easy to obtain in your situation. Finally, someone who is sick enough to shoot your animals may be capable of worse acts...stay safe.

 

[robertrwalsh]

Many western states have a different law regarding protection of livestock than they do for other sorts of "personal property" and you often have much more legal latitude in dealing with it. You might want to look into that. People who kill animals like that are often in the process of escalating and can turn out to be very dangerous indeed.

 

[k22fan]

OldeTSgt,

There is an important flaw in this thread. You are asking people who live in other, mostly unidentified, states to inform you about local law. Pay attention to where members who respond are from and what legal expertise they have.

For example, in some states blocking the criminal in after he/she shoots another horse could get you prosecuted for kidnapping, false imprisonment or something along those lines. In your community you might get paraded through the streets as a hero ... or not.

That said, the first thing that comes to mind is a steel gate set in concrete that is strong enough that a large pick-up can not push it over. Cameras are great but only if you can get the sheriff to spend man hours on the crime.

 

[Safestuffer]

I'm sorry for your loss. That's a low, low thing for a person to do.

I won't claim to know your local laws,

But I would advise against blocking them in if they reappear.
If the situation escalates, you want them to have an easy way out, for both legal and defensive reasons.

You don't want it to look like you either baited them in and trapped them, or that you were more concerned about killing them than saving your own life.

 

[kbm6893]

It's so sad that this is even a question. Coming on to a mans land should be all bets are off. But in this litigious society we live in, a man investigating a disturbance on his own property while armed is the bad guy.

Last winter was a bad one here in PA. One day, I hear shoveling in my driveway. I look outside and see a truck and two dirty looking people,'a man and a woman. I stick a gun under my shirt and step onto my porch. I td them to get off my property and the man said "you have to pay us for shoveling before we go". I start taking video with my phone and tell the guy that I have him and his girlfriend, and their truck's license plate, on video and it's not gonna end well for him if he takes another step. I never displayed my gun. They left.

But it's sad that if I had, that I would have been the aggressor because I left my house to tell two trespassers to get off my property.

As for calling the cops, in good weather they are an hour away. During a snowstorm, they're not showing up.

 

[federali]

Mindless Act

I too am sorry for your loss. I'm from NY and we do not have a castle doctrine. We may not use deadly force to stop a property crime except for arson of an occupied dwelling.

My thoughts are that someone went out of his way to destroy your horse and the shot did not come from a public roadway, ruling our a random act. Perhaps you may need to examine your social interactions during the past few months to ascertain if you may have pissed someone off badly enough for him to engage in an act of retaliation.

 

[jack the toad]

Many western states have a different law regarding protection of livestock than they do for other sorts of "personal property" and you often have much more legal latitude in dealing with it.

Not an expert but this sounds plausible. And if any state had such laws, I'd think Texas would be one of them.

 

[OldeTSgt]

I was in police work in Washington - not Texas - Washington does not have a castle law - and you actually had a duty to retreat at one point - not sure if it is like this now - I have a vague understanding of castle doctrine.

I lease the farm - I train and kennel my dogs there - we have ran off people that are trespassing on the place (in a nice way mostly) - I have absolute right to be there - I often carry a gun - shoot squirrels, turkeys etc on the place there is one road to access the place one in the driveway it splits goes up the hill to the kennel in order to get to the stable you have to drive in take the road to a left drive past the live oak tree concealing shading the stable past the barn to make the shot and there is a small 20 to 30 ft grass strip between the stable fence and the deep tank they actually drove up the small incline and either turned around or fired the shot there - there is a area that looks like she fell there struggled up and moved another 10 ft to where we found her.

The police in my town are not very responsive and although I am sure they try - I have no suspects nor can I point them in any direction to go - in short reporting it would be not very productive

My understanding is that in Texas shooting a horse is a serious felony (don't think it is a capitol offense anymore though) that they have a firearm (they had just shot my horse) and that it was at night and that there would not be a reasonable expectation of the getting the criminals in custody - how am I gonna stop them otherwise - anyway just curious - her momma (horse momma) is heartbroken - she had just weaned her and Lacy stood there by her pen (we had separated them by putting the little horse in a smaller pen stall from her momma and the two geldings) and lacy stood there while we loaded her with an excavator and buried her - I am not very happy and neither is my wife - this was our first baby we foaled on the farm and a beautiful gentle filly

 

[Old cop]

I'm not sure about the law in TX & I'm not an attorney, but I was a cop in VA for 30 years. A jury in my jurisdiction (politically liberal) might see this as escalating the situation needlessly when you could have called 911 (police response here is very good) and things might not go well for you.

The person who did this is a real low life and I hope they will be caught soon. Thanks for posting and good luck in prosecuting this bum.

 

[murphydog]

A terrible situation. Still, educating yourself on TX state law and filing a report seems prudent. If you find trespassers again on your property who happen to have a .17 caliber rifle and they are arrested, that may be something the local police would have to act upon.

 

[jack the toad]

In Okla, I think animal cruelty can be filed as a felony, depending on the circumstances. In your matter, the shooting appears intentional and with other livestock present, who is to say that the killing would stop with the colt unless they were confronted? And who would be foolish enough to do that unarmed? My point is, I think most any jury (especially in Texas) would not convict you for using deadly force in this matter (stopping the threat). Of course my goal is to stay outta court in the first place but if I had to go, I'd certainly want acquitted.
As is always the case and I'm sure you're aware, internet legal advise can be a topic of conversation (as in this thread) but that should be all.
I am sorry to hear about your loss.

 

[dougb1946]

Sorry for your loss.

We had a case in MN involving property theft. A youth, in the process of turning his life around, took a purse by pistol whipping a little old lady. A legally armed gentleman attempted to recover the ladies purse. The youth objected and pointed the pistol at the gentleman, who drew and shot accurately. In MN, you are allowed to attempt to recover property, and can give chase. If the BG points a weapon at you, you may protect yourself. Two separate events, under our laws. The youths family objected, and his sister was really vocal. As she was tried as a participant in the robbery, we ignored her.

Apparently, under MN law, you can get between the BG and property. You can run him down and catch him to recover the property. If he pulls a weapon, it becomes self defense. A legally separate act.

Just guessing, but I would think that if you caught the misguided (expletive deleted) in the act, you could arrest him. If he objected and showed a weapon, you could defend yourself. If he just kept running, you would probably have to use 911.

We have similar acts in MN once in a while. There are a number of human behaviors I just plain don't understand.

 

[phonejack]

Several years ago in my state, a man was convicted of murder for killing a man who was stealing his ATV. Best check your local laws.

 

[g8rb8]

I am not a lawyer or legal expert. It appears OldeTSgt is pondering whether or not he could have legally blocked the driveway to block the escape of the person who likely shot his horse? I think most of the other posts have opined that OldeTSgt could NOT have legally blocked the driveway to prevent escape and based on the below Texas Penal Code I would agree. If the perpetrator had been trying to flee with property then I think the phrase "from escaping with the property" would apply and it would have been legally justified to block him but since they were merely fleeing I doubt OldeTSgt would have been legally justified from blocking him on the driveway. On the other hand if OldeTSgt had blocked the perpetrator and no harm to them then I doubt OldeTSgt would have suffered any legal repercussions HOWEVER if the situation deteriorated and OldeTSgt had shot the perpetrator after blocking his exit who knows what legal trouble OldeTSgt may have faced?
According to Section 9.42 of the Texas Penal Code:
A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:
1 - if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and
2 -when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
A. to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
B. to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and
3 - he reasonably believes that:
A. the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or
B. the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.