Using LE marked ammo for civilain self defense carry

Originally posted by Jellybean:
Well I wasn't proposing to regulate it, I was just stating my opinion. But if I were to regulate it I would propose LE use firearms in a different caliber that would be illegal for civillian possesion. Or issue them ammunition with cases that are marked LE only, and this would be a good use for microstamping for all those uninformed liberals who are so adamant about getting kickbacks from the microstampers. Or you could do both. I'm sure the reason you have ammo marked LE only is because there is no law against it Wyatt. If it was illegal, would you still insist on carrying it? Only criminals commit crimes, the other 5% of the population aren't a problem.
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I strongly disagree with your assertion that cops need a caliber all their own.

There is not a single reptuable LE agency out there advocating that. That makes it in my mind a non issue.

As for the legality, I tend to make a distinction between what is morally wrong and what is illegal by fiat. The moral difference between carrying your "LE only under penalty of law" ammo and any old ammo is the same difference between murder and speeding.

Make of that what you will. But a lemming I am not.
 
Originally posted by WR Moore:
Gatorhugger- Bias vs New Hampshire involved reloaded ammo.
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The case is State of NJ v Bias. No wonder no one can find your reference.
 
I strongly disagree with your assertion that cops need a caliber all their own.

There is not a single reptuable LE agency out there advocating that. That makes it in my mind a non issue.

As for the legality, I tend to make a distinction between what is morally wrong and what is illegal by fiat. The moral difference between carrying your "LE only under penalty of law" ammo and any old ammo is the same difference between murder and speeding.
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All right, lets go through this again, it's not an assertion, merely an opinion to make it easier to investigate police involved shootings.

No you won't find any LE agencies, reputable or otherwise, that will advocate it. Most LE agencies don't know diddly about the ammo they're carrying. They base their choice off of the FBI, either carry the same thing or something a little hotter. What none of them seem to understand is that most ammunition would work if you hit the suspect with it.

Murder is wrong because you think it's immoral but speeding is alright because, why?
Are you saying we should judge criminals not by intent but on morals? Speeding and Murder are equally illegal, the fact that they don't carry the same punishment doesn't change that fact.

The case is State of NJ v Bias. No wonder no one can find your reference.
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I made that statement on the bottom of the first page. Thanks for being the only member left that hasn't put me on their ignore list Wyatt.

Daniel Bias was tried twice for his wifes murder and both ended in a hung jury. He was tried a third time and was found guilty. This was overturned on appeal. He was tried a fourth time for the accidental shooting death of his wife and was found guilty. His appeal on the fourth case was denied.
 
Well said tanksoldier. To the point.
If you are justified, you are justified, and not a jury in the land is going to jail you for having "bad" bullets.
Juries convict people ONLY when they feel the circumstances are not justified.
Along with the DA, Juries decide if it's murder or self defense.
If you are in the right, you got no worries. Use some common sense. If it's iffy, or you want to off your wife then that is another ball of wax.
 
Gatorhugger, you need to sharpen up your research a bit. I've never recommended against +P+ unless the individual's gun was too weak for it.

I've never personally run into a case where a private citizen used LE only JHP and got in trouble for it. At a Winchester seminar in '07 I asked if they had heard of it, and Winchester hadn't either.

Agree with several here: the defense I'd use if it came up would be, "If it was good enough for the police to use to defend me and my family, it was good enough for ME to use to protect myself and my family."
 
I had recorded an episode of Personal Defense TV that aired a few days ago and I was finally able to view it. It just happen to have Mas's explanation on this exact subject. The demonstration of GSR on the cardboard target was excellent, and he also explained the recommendation of marking your box of ammo you have loaded in your gun with the date, gun description, gun serial number and your signature. Great timing, thanks again Mas!

Now if I could only get in on a LFI class.
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Many apologies for the muffed legal citation. I know better than to rely on memory in the wee small hours of the morning
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LE marked ammo may or may not have the same powders as ammo packaged in other ways. This is especially true if what you're buying is contract over run stuff (like Federal 9BPLE) not normally released in commercial sales. Which is why the comment on marking the ammo box. "Don't be a test case." is probably the most valuable (but not the only) concept I got out of Constitutional Law class.
 
Other than marketing considerations, and excise tax considerations, LE cartridges are no different than any other cartridge.

They may be superior by virtue of a better bullet, or a better powder, but there is no law stating that they can't be sold and used by mere mortals. Though, one hopes that the excise tax is paid at some point in the process.

At least, that is my view on the subject.
 
Except for +P+, which doesn't seem to be as popular as it once was because fewer LE agencies are carrying 38s and 9s, I don't think there is any difference in what's offered for Law Enforcement, and what's available at the local gun store.

The only issue I see is, for example, a state such as New Jersey where state law prohibits civilians from possessing hollow point ammo.
 
While teaching at a regional police academy, I produced a list of all the weapons and loads carried by state police/highway patrols, the largest police/sheriff's departments, and selected federal agencies. I would give this to each student, as many had to purchase their own weapons, and in more instances than I like to remember, had to purchase their own duty ammunition. My opinion, and what I taught to my students, was that the larger agenices had the time and money to test the most effective ammunition, so why not take advantage of their experience and expertise, and use what they do? I believe this argument is equally applicable to the armed citizen.
 
Originally posted by safearm:
While teaching at a regional police academy, I produced a list of all the weapons and loads carried by state police/highway patrols, the largest police/sheriff's departments, and selected federal agencies.
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Please post the list.
 
Originally posted by Wyatt Earp:
Originally posted by safearm:
While teaching at a regional police academy, I produced a list of all the weapons and loads carried by state police/highway patrols, the largest police/sheriff's departments, and selected federal agencies.
Click to expand...

Please post the list.
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I'd like to see it as well. Thanks.
 
I'll try to recover it, but I retired in 2004, so I may not be able to get it as quickly as you (or I'd) like.
 
I was doing a summer as a small-town cop and my new sergeant said there was only one guy he thought said anything decent in print, the guy with the "funny name". My own number one choice was Massad, so I said "Ayoob?'

"Yeah, that's him" he replied.

The man has been places and heard of incidents most cops haven't. As such, his opinion stands very tall with those who go in harm's way by profession.

Keithcarter
NRA Life
 
Egad, so many people are absolutely scared to death of the government. Ooh, what will happen if I do anything that is outside prescribed guidelines?

Use the ammo you want and think is best.

Besides, you can be "demonized" NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO!!! A prosecutor, or the attorney for the deceased/injured bad guy can cause nightmares for you no matter what. If the prosecutor has leftist political goals, or if the bad guy's attorney sees dollar signs, you're in trouble. Makes no difference what you shot someone with. If you use handloads, you're using "unapproved" or "unsafe" ammunition...factory ammo wasn't deadly enough for you. If you use factory hollowpoints, you "chose the most horrible ammo you could find, which was designed to rip flesh and cause the most grisly wounds".... Heck, if you used LRN, then you chose ammo you knew would cause someone to die a slow, painful death.... If you live in an urban/liberal area, rest assured, you will not be able to do ANYTHING right anyway. It won't matter what you do, there might be someone with an axe to grind who is out to get you, you murderous gunowning barbarian.

And, for those of us who live in more rural/conservative areas of the country, it would almost certainly NEVER be an issue anyway.

It's just not something I would worry about.
 
Mas Ayoob not only is not a "boob," he is a gentleman, and as a full time practicing attorney and sometimes expert witness myself, I can think of no other single person I'd rather have testifying on my behalf at trial in a defensive shooting case. Also, unlike some who have posted above, he can spell and punctuate. Looks like I'll get to use my "ignore" button again, twice. A "special" cartridge for law enforcement? Jeez; sounds like Mexico. Just what we need.
 
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