Victim Tried to Defend Himself and Gun Jammed

[NZshooter]

I wear a Harley Davidson denim vest year round.

All day, every day, no matter the weather and no matter where you go? That's not feasible for 99.9999% of people.

 

[Watchdog]

I am still trying to figure out what this means!!!!!!! Doesn't anyone proof read and correct their posts so they make sense?

He's saying that he inspects his gun nightly and makes sure he knows how to use a new gun properly. He insures that there is nothing in the barrel or action to cause a malfunction.

I didn't have a bit of trouble understanding what he means. No need to make fun of the guy.

 

[vito]

Of course any gun can jam under certain circumstances, but I don't think its unrealistic to say that a quality revolver with factory ammo is LESS likely to be a problem than a semi-auto. For the casual gun owner who goes to the range rarely, if at all, and might have the same original box of 50 rounds that they bought when they bought the gun, a revolver seems to make more sense. I am pretty confident that a good revolver, kept in someone's underwear drawer in their dresser, could sit undisturbed for 20 years and then will go bang when the trigger is pulled. I wouldn't have the same level of confidence for a semi-auto left in a similar manner.

The reality is that we can always imagine a scenario where our preparedness, no matter how extensive, is not enough to prevail against the bad guys. You can have your AR, 12 gauge and a pistol or two but when a well trained crew of a dozen assailants breaks into your home at 3 AM you are not likely to emerge the winner. But for most of us, we do not live our lives in full readiness, with all of our tools at our disposal wherever we are. So each of us does what seems reasonable to us and then hopes for the best.

BTW, I think a realistic concern for the average gun owner is an accidental discharge or negligent discharge when we hear "the bump in the night" that might turn out to be nothing more than a raccoon outside or a branch brushing against a window. Having a light triggered Glock which has no manual safety might make a whole let less sense than a solid double action only revolver. And chances are that an alert homeowner will grab his gun at 3 AM more often than the highly unlikely chance that his home is actually under attack, so concern over an AD is totally realistic.

My go-to gun in my bedroom is my Model 19, with JHP 357 Magnum ammo, with a Crimson Trace laser. If I need more than that I am already in big trouble.

 

[Gamecock]

Vito, I agree that there are limits to what we can prepare for. I can't stop a Marine battalion.

I am concerned that the Londons didn't adequately prepare, in spite of an obvious, serious threat. Maybe they did, and circumstances just didn't work out for them. Which is discomforting, because it means all my preparations may come to naught if I have to defend my home some day. I'd rather believe they didn't prepare.

 

[federali]

Guns in the hands of untrained people

This incident reminds me of the armed robbery, about 35-40 years ago, of Continental Arms, a 2nd floor, high-end gunshop in NYC catering to the well-healed with everything priced 50% OVER list price to discourage the unwashed from visiting. The robber killed one owner but the other whipped out his trusty .25 auto (yes, a .25 auto) which suffered a stoppage after the first shot. The robber fled.

You would think that people in the gun business would have something on the ball. Apparently not.

 

[vito]

Our preparations may not be enough, but at least most of us on this forum are taking some steps to be prepared for the unlikely but real risk of being attacked/robbed. I can't even imagine the thinking going on in some people's minds when they accept the reality that the police will not be there to save them, and yet take no meaningful steps to at least give themselves a fighting chance against a thug. I can only guess that they either refuse to think about the chances of being victimized at all, or that they truly believe it can "never happen to me".

When I am out an about, none of the guns that I choose among to carry (ranging from a 5-round 38 snubbie to an 8 round 9mm semi-auto) will do much if I am besieged by a gang of criminals. But I think that the odds are I will NOT be a crime victim, and if I am, it is likely to be a single or pair of thugs and not more. In that case even my 5-round 642 gives me confidence that I will have a fighting chance of prevailing. On a day in and day out basis I just can't get myself to carry multiple guns, or go through the hassle of carrying a large capacity, high caliber semi-auto that would not be easy to conceal.

 

[Muss Muggins]

I am still trying to figure out what this means!!!!!!! Doesn't anyone proof read and correct their posts so they make sense?

OTOH, This entire thread is a sorry example of Monday morning quarterbacking. None of you has any idea of the failure mode of the victim's firearm(s). There are a lot of possibilities, but no one can say if any of the conjecture had any bearing on the situation whatsoever. The general tone is that in someway being killed by the bandits was due to some failure by the victims, that there was something they didn't do that they should have done. Go harp on on one of the self-defense forums with the rest of the wannabees if you think your "failure drills", etc. would have changed the outcome!

The sad fact is that most people who buy handguns for self-defense think all it takes is buying a gun and ammunition and if a bad situation arises that merely having the gun will somehow make everything work out. 'Taint so!!! The Londons may or not have fallen into this group, but if they did all that makes them is absolutely like 90+% of the gun-owning population, non-shooters!

Sooo . . . . I'm having trouble trying to figure out what this means. Last sentence second paragraph, you say failure drills wouldn't have helped. Very next sentences, first and second in third paragraph, you say that it takes more than buying a gun and ammunition. Last sentence, last paragraph, I can't figure out at all. You begin the post with saying we don't know what happened, so we can't discuss this meaningfully, and you end it with "They're probably not familiar with how their gun operated, like 90% of gun owners?"

What exactly is your stance?

 

[BigBill]

I trust my autos for home defence. I hate to make a bloody mess in the house.

 

[Gamecock]

I trust my autos for home defence. I hate to make a bloody mess in the house.

"Blood is like burnt oil, it doesn't take much to make a big mess." - GC

 

[firebreather]

All I can say about this is it's a terribly sad incident. Prayers up for the family of the deceased and the prosecutors that hopefully will finish this job. I would like to find out more about the details of the home invasion, so if anyone can shed more light please do so.

I didn't know the people that died personally, but it is easy to tell the kind of man Mr. London was. He died moving forward trying to defend his home and family not on his knees begging.

BTW, any of you that say a revolver never jams/malfunctions has never worked as a RO or instructor on a range back when revolvers were the only guns LEO's carried. If you had you'd have never made that comment.

Rob

 

[Doug M.]

Another possibility is that he fired one handed and the pistol wasn't properly supported during recoil, thus causing the stovepipe. If we're going to second guess, this would be the frontrunner.

*
There is a reason for testing/training with a pistol by shooting from poor, unsupported, and unconventional positions. A quality firearm with quality ammo, adequately maintained (lube is almost always going to be more important than cleaning; a pistol or AR that won't go at least 1000 rounds without cleaning is broken and needs immediate attention), should not malfunction under such circumstances. There is not near enough information to determine what happened, and my guess is that it would (or at least should) be in the police reports, but the media would not care enough about such details to report it. Such would certainly be in any report I would ever see, and in this state, all of that would be public record.

This event is also a good example of why I advocate layers of defense - fencing, dogs and other alarms (10 seconds more notice might have made a hell of a difference), and generally more than one firearm. This is even more applicable when one has a bit more reason to fear real attacks than the average person. While I always have at least one handgun close by, and at night at least 2, the primary is an AR for darned good reasons.

This is also an example of why I don't care about spending more money to get good quality guns and gear, and to buy large amounts of quality ammo for testing and the like. (I almost never buy in quantities of less than a case, and often it's several cases at a time.) It's a priority that matters, unlike wasting money on silly stuff like going to movies and pro sports, owning a boat, etc. If one's risk level is high enough, as mine has been, the priorities simply have to be different. Of course, that does require accepting the possibility that such things can happen, and many people, including some on this forum, don't have the right mindset about that.

 

[federali]

Agree with Firebreather

A semi-auto can most often be cleared and returned to the fray. When a revolver lays down, it's usually out of business and needs a trip to the bench.
Here are some stoppages that can't readily be cleared:
A loose extractor rod prevents the cylinder from opening.
A very hot hand load causes the primer to extrude into the hammer nose hole in the frame (it isn't called a firing pin) preventing the cylinder from turning.
Fumbling with the extraction process causes a shell to work its way under the extractor star.
Untrained and careless extraction causes unburned powder to find its way under the extractor, preventing the cylinder from closing.

I too was a firearms instructor; 20 years with revolvers and 10 years with autos. I've seen it all and while I use revolvers, my primary defense guns are semi-autos.

 

[gboling]

I'm with ya,,,,

One well placed round = one body bag.

Six well placed rounds = six body bags.

Eighteen well placed rounds = eighteen body bags & two speed loaders.

Practice often, practice more, shoot at the "X" ring. Don't stop shooting till there all in the x ring.

When the pucker factor sets in one well placed round out of six could easily be a pipe dream.

 

[Rastoff]

It's a priority that matters, unlike wasting money on silly stuff like going to movies and pro sports, owning a boat, etc.

One man's trash is another man's treasure. Spending money on things you enjoy is never silly by itself. It's only silly if you ignore the other, more important things, like food or shelter, that it becomes silly.

I understand what you're saying. Alas, it's mostly wasted electrons. People don't change. Either learning to defend yourself and family is a priority or it's not. We are not going to change any minds here.

 

[snowman]

I understand what you're saying. Alas, it's mostly wasted electrons. People don't change. Either learning to defend yourself and family is a priority or it's not. We are not going to change any minds here.

I get you, Rastoff, but I think your viewpoint is a bit extreme. It appears to me that there are a LOT more folks taking the issue seriously in the last several years than was the case in previous years(a big generalization, I know; but I think a reasonably valid one). I know that I've seen and talked to many, many folks out at the range with defensive pistols in the last couple years that I never saw in the previous ten years or so. I myself never gave self-defense any thought prior to around 2002; didn't own a gun either. Around that time I began to pay more attention to news reports of violent crimes and, since I am partly disabled and more physical forms of defense are impossible for me, I talked with experienced people and began to prepare myself. I bought some guns & and a range membership, and have been using the range on a regular basis since then. I also provided rudimentary training to a family not long ago that I never in a million years would have thought would become concerned with defending themselves, and have a few family members who have done the same.

But maybe I've misunderstood -wouldn't be the first time!

Regards,
Andy

 

[Big Stick]

I think I am going to discontinue carrying either my Glock or Shield, and just stick with a good old reliable spear, or swap meet Samurai sword..... No worries anymore about reliability.....

 

[trooper2899]

Practice weak handed (it will produce stove pipe malfunctions) especially when close up and personal 7 or less yards video IS excellent on TAP RACK BANG

 

[star1]

These FBI training videos are very instructive about the shooting that took place in 1986 Miami. Even though the perps were hit multiple times they kept on fighting and killed two of the FBI agents before finally dying after they were shot in the head by one of the wounded agents.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlSCE88UhyA[/ame]

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAUDnzDhQpc[/ame]

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vp1FoWi1nx0[/ame] movie, about 1 1/2 hrs

Norm

 

[Tonyman]

Very Sad Situation , Always Taught My Kids That Make Sure Doors Are Locked All The Time , Dog Or Dogs At Times Are 2nd Line Of De-fence Get To a Safe Room, Lock The Door And Get To A Defense Weapon And A Phone , This May Not ! Always Work But Have Yourself A Secure Plan, May God Bless The Londons And Let The Courts Do There JUST Best !

 

[getoff]

very sad indeed. tap, rack, asess... do it, train to do it, practice doing it if you plan on a semi for defense. my bro in-law and i load mags for each other on range days to try to jam each other up. you might be amazed how fast you can clear a double feed with a little practice.