Victims in Texas Shooting, what could they have done in that moment?

[Kronos]

Generally when matters go sideways I plan to be moving, looking for cover so as to not make myself a target, somewhere while doing that I'm getting my gun out.

I see a weirdo like that one I ain't going to be near him,less so out in the open,I'll probably take up a secure position that I can get cover if it goes to hell and I can return the hate with a vengeance.

I'm not a church person so I can't say where I'd be in that situation.

 

[fmflorida]

...accepted Dylan Roof into their bible study. He wasn't dressed funny and acted very calm before he went nuts on those poor people.

Im not sure what point you are trying to make? In THAT instance the assailant was acting normal and was accepted into the Church with open arms....then did evil.

In this instance the assailant was acting strange.....and was still allowed to stay and welcomed with open arms.......

The difference is in THIS instance the assailant was acting odd and dressed odd for the weather/location which was a red flag to some of the security team members...but they still welcomed him.

If you are trying to say assailants come in all forms, I 100% agree but when you have clear signs.....thats a plus for the good guys.

 

[Wise_A]

Many of you are overlooking the fact that a house of worship requires blueprints and building permits issued by the local municipality. Maximum occupancy is determined, as are the number of exits required in the event of a fire. These exits must remain unlocked when the building is occupied in compliance with local fire codes.

For this reason, trying to limit points of entry is not a tactical option available to police or armed civilian volunteers or guards.

Every place I've ever been, crashbar doors--locked from the outside, but accessible from the inside--were permissible in fire codes.

 

[Dvan34]

The news indicates that the shooter was known by the members of the congregation and 'had' made previous threats. I would say that they had reasons to ask him to leave, or take off his heavy coat, etc.. and or both.

This needs to be discussed to deal with future potential situations. If they need 'legal' opinions- get them. Also the teams could engage in 'role playing' training situations on handling something like this in the future, other than just practicing shooting. Perhaps use of pepper spray or even wasp spray?

 

[robertrwalsh]

I have watched the video with some interest. The first man shot MIGHT HAVE HAD a better chance by rushing the shooter or evasion. Had he been closer, rushing would have been a good option. Had he been further, evasion would have been a good option. Unfortunately, unless you are REALLY fast and your opponent is REALLY slow action beats reaction. By the time you see the bad guy swinging the shotgun up you probably don't have time to draw and bring your own weapon into play. That in-between distance is a rough situation to be in (obviously).

 

[andy52]

I understand that it's a place of worship and people should be welcomed there but I saw the interview with the person that took down the perp.
He said they had eyes on the prep from the time he walk in the door.
If they suspected him from the beginning wouldn't a personal and close up greeting ( face to face) have prevent him from going any farther?

 

[Rastoff]

One thing that could have been done differently...

The second man shot was no more than 2-3 feet from the shooter. He could have tackled the shooter the instant he saw the shotgun. This may have saved one or both lives, maybe not.

This is not a criticism, just an observation.

We all need to remember that our firearm is not our only defensive tool.

 

[andy52]

Rastoff these guys were all in there 60-70s like me and even though I understand your point I don't know if I'm fast enough or strong enough anymore to pull something like that off. The whole thing happened in 4-6 seconds, I don't know if I would have been fast enough to do what you suggest. But like I said in my previous post getting up close to the guy I may have been able to do, it would be hard to raise a shotgun from under a coat if we were toe to toe.

 

[robertrwalsh]

News reports today say the bad guy had been in the church earlier in the year (no exact time frame). They gave him food but refused to give him money. He wanted money and was angry at the refusal. This is being offered as a possible motive for the shooting.

 

[keith44spl]

One thing that could have been done differently...

The second man shot was no more than 2-3 feet from the shooter. He could have tackled the shooter the instant he saw the shotgun.

This may have saved one or both lives, maybe not.

This is not a criticism, just an observation.

We all need to remember that our firearm is not our only defensive tool.

I understand what your saying....

Under the like circumstances as the church usher...

I don't know to certainty I could have done any better.


.

 

[andy52]

Keith they did try and died for it but this is the most poignant statement that can be made for their actions...."Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends".

 

[Jessie]

I can’t see this happening any other way than it did. The heroic security man who was gunned down did about as good as he could have. Evil just had a second’s head start on him. The second fatality did not have any means of protection that I could see.
The second security man did to the perp what the perp did to the unfortunate first man.
I only wish it could have happened 5 seconds sooner.
I praise them both.

 

[flagman1776]

I've seen better video now. It seems that the perp was going for Victim#2 initially. Victim#1 saw the threat and went for his gun. The perp shifted his aim and took out V#1 before reverting to V#2. The perp's shift of aim might have bought V#1 time he needed. I looks close to me but there's no second place winner here. V#2 was gifted a split second to react, sadly it wasn't enough. I agree now, V#2 had very limited options. He might have tried a counter attack or could have done a fake a heart attack and throw himself out of the line of fire. If he was armed, trying to fall so as to not impeed a draw... weak side or back...

I think a number of parishioners got up which was unwise. As potential victims, ducking into and behind the pews would have given them cover and concealment and clear line of fire for the protectors.

I was critical earlier of armed protectors moving towards the perp, thus leaving the 6 o'clock unguarded. I watched a few times to watch these other actions. From the camera position, we can't see the right wall. Other armed protectors might have taken guard positions against that wall... we don't know. I suggest uninjured pashioners crouch / crawl toward the exits.

One take away is armed protectors need to be on the outside pew end so they have freedom of movement. If not a 'hero' perhaps, but men who saw the elephant and did their best. A final thought: Jeff Cooper pointed out that evil is not overcome by fleeing from it.

 

[andy52]

A final thought: Jeff Cooper pointed out that evil is not overcome by fleeing from it.

My point exactly, if they suspected this person from the time he walked in the door walk up to him even in a friendly manner and confront him. Don't wait until SHTF and try being reactive.

 

[Ziggy2525]

I can’t see this happening any other way than it did. The heroic security man who was gunned down did about as good as he could have. Evil just had a second’s head start on him. The second fatality did not have any means of protection that I could see.
The second security man did to the perp what the perp did to the unfortunate first man.
I only wish it could have happened 5 seconds sooner.
I praise them both.

^^^ this.

I also wonder if the dirt bag murder's bizarre dress and the unexpected appearance of the shotgun caused the two deceased GG's OODA loop to get stuck. The security team may have trained for an active shooter, but not a clown wearing a wig and fake beard with a shotgun. It may have been so outside any scenario they practiced they sort of got stuck.

 

[keith44spl]

I read somewhere, that the perpetrator had visited this church earlier in the year
asking for money, was give food instead and he was upset because he did not receive cash.

Retaliation for his previous visit, hence the disguise?

.

 

[SMSgt]

I'd bet my money all they were thinking was, "Oh poop!" or some derivative.

 

[Mister X]

I’ve only watched snippets of the video, but in general, H2H skills and physical fitness. Gun guys always think about going immediately to the gun, but if you’re at ground zero when these kinds of incidents go down, unarmed skills can save the day and are generally the best first response at those ranges. If you lack the physical ability to engage in that manner(which many do), you’ll need a lot of luck or divine intervention unless the shooter gets distracted and is not paying attention to you.

 

[Smoke]

Many of you are overlooking the fact that a house of worship requires blueprints and building permits issued by the local municipality. Maximum occupancy is determined, as are the number of exits required in the event of a fire. These exits must remain unlocked when the building is occupied in compliance with local fire codes.

For this reason, trying to limit points of entry is not a tactical option available to police or armed civilian volunteers or guards.

Panic bars are a thing

 

[Kanewpadle]

Every place I've ever been, crashbar doors--locked from the outside, but accessible from the inside--were permissible in fire codes.

In accordance with National Fire Protection Association (NFPA 101 Life Safety Code) which most jurisdictions adopt, doors may be locked but must allow unimpeded egress. This of course depends on the hardware being used.

Exit devices (panic bars) are the most effective but costly. Most churches use them on both interior and exterior doors.

I would not attend a church which left any door unlocked other than the front door.