Victory data base

[Dawn Patrol]

Victory date base addition # V 4922xx.

Here is my victory. .38 special I must have gotten it 30 years ago. Early 80s in one owner gunshop in N. Ca. I think I paid $75. I collected 1911s and branched out into U.S. revolvers. I believe it's dob is mid 1943. Correct me if I'm wrong and any other information would be great. I deleted the last two digits so don't think it is a 4 digit gun! THe number is # V 4922xx. No U.S. property mark. I ran into trouble trying to get the screw out of the grip to check SN. Just too tight and I am afraid of buggering the screwhead. (Update: I got the grip screw out with no damage and was happy to find the full serial number stamped on the inside right grip. Those grips were on really tight even without the screw!.) The other numbers in the usual places match. Assembly nos. on the yoke. S stamp on cyl. crane. Cylinder has serial #, P and S.
Rack number 84 stamped both stock bottoms. Flaming Bomb ordnance stamp butt next to V. P stamp upper right frame near top back edge of cylinder. V serial number and P stamp flat underside of barrel and inside extractor star. Thanks for taking a look.

 

[Dawn Patrol]

5 more shots

 

[78shovel]

78Shovel, yours is one of those made for the British, and a probable shipping date was August-September 1942. If a .38 Special cartridge will fit, the chambers have been modified by boring them deeper. At least your barrel has not been shortened, but it looks to have been refinished. It's safe to fire standard .38 Special in it but the fired cases may be bulged. You can also fire .38 S&W ammo in it. Unfortunately, the lack of the original grips, refinishing, and rechambering have a considerable negative effect on its value.

DWalt, thanks for the info. Hopefully the serial number will help with the data base. I have found a lanyard ring for it and if I run across the right grips I will bring it back as close as I can to it's original condition. I just love this thing and your info is appreciated.

 

[Dawn Patrol]

S&W pre V Lend lease Canada 38/380

This WW2 Smith and Wesson was Canadian used. The serial number is #7372xx, with a 6" barrel. Last two serial number digits I removed from photos. This revolver came from the family of the veteran who served with the 1st Div in Africa early part of WW2. He brought back 3 handguns from the war. This one and two captured German pistols. A 1941 AC P-38 and a Nazi marked Browning 9mm. I have all three guns. THe markings on this S&W: barrel stamp 38/380 cal. British broad arrow in a C for Canadian use. Serial number matching on butt, back face of cylinder, inside extractor star and bottom barrel flat. P stamp on butt. Assembly numbers (same) on yoke surfaces. Inside right grip stamped with same serial number and same stamp used as on metal surfaces. That is all I can find save the usual top barrel address ending in 1914 date and the .38 S & W cartridge stamp with end serifs on the rt. barrel. I have had this in my collection since the early 80s, paying $150 at the time. What would be a correct holster for this pre V victory model as used by Canadian troops? Would it be a US holster (which one?) or UK model? I would like to know it's DOB-shipping date too and any other history of use. I wonder about it's current market value.

 

[Dawn Patrol]

5 more photos

 

[DWalt]

Without the V-prefix, it has a probable shipping date in April-May 1941. Obviously for British use and appears to have a 6" barrel, which is a bit unusual, as most were 5". Also, it has medallion-style checkered stocks, also a bit unusual. But at that time, very possible and very likely original and correct, especially so as the stock SN matches. The bright blued finish is also correct for this period. This is called a pre-Victory model in .38/200 (.38 S&W), aka the S&W Model of 1905, Military & Police, 4th Change, and yours is a very nice specimen of one, with a ton of character. The British official name for it was the "Pistol, Smith & Wesson, No.2" but I don't know what the Canadian nomenclature was. I know nothing about holsters that could have been used with it. I'd say it's well worth ordering a factory letter. As it appears complete, correct, and in good condition, I would say its market value would be in excess of $500, maybe closer to $700. These are not seen that often, so that's just a guess. Others may provide a better estimate. All this assumes the chambers have not been bored out to accept .38 Special cartridges. I hope not.

As is the case for most British military sidearms, and I suspect that the Canadians were no different, this revolver was issued mainly to officers, and used more as a badge of authority rather than as a primary combat weapon. Therefore, its chambering for the relatively anemic .38 S&W (.38/200) cartridge was not a great disadvantage. Of course, some went to enlisted troops who had no need (or room) to carry a rifle, such as tank crews, artillery, etc.

 

[Dawn Patrol]

Thank you DWalt for this detailed information. All very good to hear. I checked and it chambers .38 S&W and not .38 special, happy to say. I will take your advice about a factory letter and report the results. One question I have for you. With this specific revolver marked for Canadian use, would the lend lease shipments in this time period have all gone to England for distribution or would this gun have been sent to Canada? Would a factory letter give that kind of information(Lend Lease) or only first shipments in the states? Thanks so much for the help.

 

[DWalt]

President Roosevelt signed the Lend-Lease bill into law on March 11, 1941. It permitted him to "sell, transfer title to, exchange, lease, lend, or otherwise dispose of, to any such government [whose defense the President deems vital to the defense of the United States] any defense article." Shortly thereafter, in addition to benefiting the the British Commonwealth, Lend-Lease was extended to include China and the USSR. Lend-Lease continued throughout the rest of WWII. I do not believe there were any Lend-Lease shipments actually made to the British Commonwealth until somewhat later in 1941, as Congress had to first approve funding for the program. Prior to Lend-Lease, the British had to pay for weapons purchased from the U.S. in gold.

Your revolver was probably not part of the Lend-Lease program, as it was likely to have been manufactured and shipped before LL got underway. Also, almost all LL armament was clearly marked "U. S. Property" or something similar. Therefore, yours was probably one that was paid for in gold, and maybe one of those made for Britain in compensation for the Million dollars the British paid S&W for the abortive 1940 "Light Rifle" project. I don't think there was any reason that these pre-LL revolvers could not have been directly shipped to Canada, as Canada was part of the Commonwealth, but that's something I don't know about. The factory letter may give some details in regard to where your revolver was shipped that may or may not give a clue about direct shipment to Canada. When you get the letter, please post it here.

 

[johnnyo55]

Some Victory gun porn...

Here are a couple of shots of a "U.S.Navy" Victory model I've had since the '80's. S/N is V16579, and I believe it to be unfired. It has what seems to be a dulite blue over sandblasted finish (rather than parkerizing). I haven't been able to find any proof "P" under the barrel, or anywhere else...just the "U.S. Navy" on the left topstrap. Accompanying it was the "Boyt 44" shoulder holster and the "Boyt 42" web cartridge pouch. I've noticed that many of these shoulder rigs had white duck cartridge loops sewn into the shoulder strap...missing here. Shipboard modification?

Anyway, enjoy the pics...

 

[Dawn Patrol]

That is one beautiful Navy Victory and great display shot with the Navy wings and holster.(and a cool table too Mentioning the shoulder holster with the duck cartridge loops reminded me I had one stashed. Most I have seen in references were wide nylon (slightly wider than the shoulder strap) one piece affairs. Mine is like you described, white cotton duck material and does look shipboard made. Look at the ink marks on the leather strap for sewing the loops on. Mine has no markings like US Navy on the back either that I can see. Very well used so may have rubbed off. Thanks for posting your gun and accessories. We were lucky to have found ours 20-30 years ago.

 

[DWalt]

"I haven't been able to find any proof "P" under the barrel, or anywhere else...just the "U.S. Navy" on the left topstrap."

Yours would have likely been shipped in mid-1942, as it is an early V-model. The 1942 Navy-marked revolvers were produced under direct Navy contracts, not Army, and did not receive inspection markings. There were about 65,000 of those produced from 1942 and early 1943. Later on the Army Ordnance Department managed all S&W military revolver contracts, including Navy orders. Those later Navy revolvers had no Navy ownership markings (as the earlier ones did) and did have Army inspection markings. With very few exceptions, the finish on all V-series revolvers should have been phosphate, not bluing of any kind. I have no way of knowing what the finish on your revolver is, but it was (and is) possible to hot-blue over a phosphate finish, and that was sometimes done (but not by the military) on surplus military guns. Also, phosphate finishes may be produced in various colors from gray through black, depending upon the phosphate chemicals used (there are at least three different formulations). Yours looks to have a dark phosphate finish, at least to me.

It would be nice if someone knew, and could relate, any phosphate finish variations S&W used for the pre-V and V-series revolvers during the war. I feel certain there were some, but I don't know anything.

You are very fortunate to have one with Navy markings. Unfortunately, fakes are known to exist, due to the higher desirability and value of Navy-marked specimens. It is definitely worth your getting a factory letter to verify authenticity. I say this only because a very high proportion of the earlier V-models (such as yours) were made for the British, not the U. S. Navy.

 

[johnnyo55]

I hear what you're saying about fakes...can't be too careful, these days! In this case, however, I think I'm fairly safe; I bought the whole rig thirty or so years ago for the princely sum of $150. (Yes, it was a steal even then...) In addition, the .38 spl. barrel (Brits were .38 S&W, no?) and cylinder are serialed to the receiver. It COULD be phosphated, but the color is more of a match for two other WW2 produced weapons in my collection (a US&S M1911A1 and a Savage-made Lend lease No4 Mk1 rifle) which are documented to have been dulited originally, than other, clearly phosphated companion weapons. I recall reading somewhere that Victories were blued for a very short period in (you guessed it) mid-42. I'll have to look at it in a strong light, and "compare and contrast".

 

[DWalt]

Allegedly, du-lite bluing stopped in the mid-900,000 SN range in early 1942, and was replaced by a phosphate finish thereafter. Reportedly, some of the very earliest V-models were blued, but these few were reputed to have been made up as presentation or display pieces. One of them is supposed to be in the President Truman museum in Missouri. But one never knows exactly what was done back then regarding finishes. A factory letter might or might not supply a description of the finish used.

 

[Dawn Patrol]

Here is another Pre-Victory I have. Serial numbers match #9028xx. Australian lend lease gun originally. "United States Property" stamped on top strap. Broad arrow in several places. This one was refinished, rebuilt in 1955 at Lithgow. Aust. Dept of Defense: D arrow D mark. .38 S and W. It has the Vega Sac Ca import stamp from the 80s import. The black parkerized finish is over some pitting in the metal but mint bore and tight action. I bought it as a shooter-carry gun, not collectible but an example of the pre Victory lend lease to Australia and could tell a few stories. The grips I added. The carved Victory grips are what came on it and the serial numbers stamped on those is #991473. Neat field personalization. Butt: WB, flaming bomb and P stamp and a B on the lower forward grip.

 

[Dawn Patrol]

4 more pictures of Australian S&W. The hand carved V grips came on the gun originally. I replaced them with the medallion grips. Those are unnumbered.

 

[DWalt]

4 more pictures of Australian S&W. The hand carved V grips came on the gun originally. I replaced them with the medallion grips. Those are unnumbered.

That one is from early 1942, probably January or February, and should indeed be a Lend-Lease item given both the timing and the U. S. property marking. It looks like the hand "checkered" wooden stocks were probably smooth and without a medallion. I do not know when the smooth grips started, but from what I have seen, I'd guess sometime from very late 1941 to early 1942.

 

[bullelk1]

I have a victory model SN# V289868 on the butt of the grip. I purchased in Denver Colorado in 1965 for security guard work (part time). It is a .38 Special and accepts and fires that load. Most markings are the same or similar to guns pictured on this site except the grips are checkered without a logo and it has the inscription on the left side under the cylinder release " converted by Cogswell & Harrison ltd, London". Barell is 3.5 in and marked "38 S&W".

Any information on this would be appreciated.

 

[bullelk1]

Thanks for the reply and information. Upon further exam I find that a serial number under the extractor on the bottom of the barrell contains the same number of the gun so the barrell must have been shortened. On the right side of the barrell it is stamped "38 s&w ctg" and contains a second stamp below that "38 1-15 4 (unknown mark) N S." If the front site was added during a modification they did a good job on it.

Anyways thanks for the help.

Fred

 

[DWalt]

Thanks for the reply and information. Upon further exam I find that a serial number under the extractor on the bottom of the barrel contains the same number of the gun so the barrel must have been shortened. On the right side of the barrel it is stamped "38 s&w ctg" and contains a second stamp below that "38 1-15 4 (unknown mark) N S." If the front site was added during a modification they did a good job on it.

Anyways thanks for the help.

Fred

Undoubtedly it was a shortened 5" barrel, not replaced. And a good Smith can make the front sight look like it came from the factory that way - I don't know how, but I've seen enough of them. A lot of these barrels were chopped to 2" (or less), which involved cutting off the front locking latch, and those are really bad. At least your barrel probably retains the front latch. Be aware that the .38 S&W bore is a little oversized for a .38 Special bullet, but that generally makes little difference in grouping performance for shooting at close range. Another problem is that the .38 S&W chamber at the rear is a little oversized for the .38 Special case, and bulged cases may result upon firing. But that's not a serious problem. You can also continue to use .38 S&W ammunition, assuming you can find it - it's rather scarce and expensive, but it might give better accuracy.

 

[TurboKnox]

New Submission to Victory Database

Hello, I was referred here by another thread and have a Victory model I'd like to submit.

Serial No. V-466936. So far I've learned that it's likely been refinished and has newer grips. I am going to pursue a factory letter, but would like to learn as much as I can about it here as well. Thanks for any info you can provide, and let me know if you need anything else.