Victory data base

[grendelbean]

Early Pre-Victory with Australian Markings

I have been keeping an eye open hoping to pick up one each of the British Commonwealth-marked Victory or Pre-Victory Models. Noticed this one and it seemed interesting (to my novice eye anyway).
It is a Model 1905 M&P, Fourth Change 38 S&W revolver that was, I think, purchased directly from S&W by the British or at least a very early DSC contract gun. Serial on butt 790256.
It has no markings beyond the standard S&W markings and Australian markings. No British proof or inspection marks of any kind. The only markings are stampings showing rebuild at Lithgow Small Arms Factory in New South Wales, Australia in 1955. It also has the A Broad Arrow F mark of the Australian armed forces and an inspector's mark from Lithgow.
With no U.S. or British property markings I'm not clear how the revolver got to Australia but thats not unusual in the War, naturally. The cylinder has been bored out to .38 Special length and dummy rounds fit into the chambers nicely. It is also marked on the right sideplate under the S&W logo,"BORED IN AUSTRALIA." That has to be a commercial marking I would think so the gun must have been surplussed out but there are no markings showing that either.
Hope someone has some facts since thats all I know or can surmise about this interesting gun.

 

[grendelbean]

Post-Victory Appropriate for data base?

Have a very nice looking post-Victory Model .38 M&P. Serial number S 836036. This S serial numbered gun has no hole for swivel. Not blocked, just never there. Otherwise is a great looking Victory Model-style revolver.
I report it here just in case it is appropriate for the data base. I was (and still am) looking for a nice S with blocked swivel hole (as made from an actual Victory Model left over frame). But this one is nice looking. Stocks seem correct for post-war. Thanks.

 

[Absalom]

It is a Model 1905 M&P, Fourth Change 38 S&W revolver that was, I think, purchased directly from S&W by the British or at least a very early DSC contract gun. Serial on butt 790256.
It has no markings beyond the standard S&W markings and Australian markings. No British proof or inspection marks of any kind. The only markings are stampings showing rebuild at Lithgow Small Arms Factory in New South Wales, Australia in 1955. It also has the A Broad Arrow F mark of the Australian armed forces and an inspector's mark from Lithgow.
With no U.S. or British property markings I'm not clear how the revolver got to Australia but thats not unusual in the War, naturally. The cylinder has been bored out to .38 Special length and dummy rounds fit into the chambers nicely. It is also marked on the right sideplate under the S&W logo,"BORED IN AUSTRALIA." That has to be a commercial marking I would think so the gun must have been surplussed out but there are no markings showing that either.
.... .

With no indications of stop in Britain first, and the A^F mark which is uncommon, this is possibly one of the few thousand BSR's from an Australia-direct shipment in May 1941. The gun would letter as such if it is. The serial puts it in the right general time frame. We have a member here, I can't recall who, with a lettered one.

The "Bored in Australia" does sound like a commercial mark, not of US origin. It was refinished again, over the Lithgow FTR stampings. It also doesn't have the VEGA stamp, like most that came back, so it had a different surplus history.

 

[ordnanceguy]

Hello Grendelbean:

Thanks for your post. I have included your S836036 in the Database although technically it is not a Victory since it does not have a V or SV in the serial prefix. However, I am not that fussy and will say that we have quite a few post-WW2 S prefix guns in the Database since those guns share many features with the Victory.

Member Jack is the local expert on the post-Victory guns around here so I am sure that he will interested to see your example.

Does it have a small "s" on the side plate?

One odd feature I noticed is that the tops of both Magna stocks appear to me to be shaved or sanded down. Are the stocks serial number matching to the gun?

Thanks again for the data.

 

[tymekeeper]

Another victory model for the data base

My dad had this one since I was a child and left it to me when he passed in 1982. i'd love to learn more about it.
The serial no. on the butt is V175051 with a number inside the crane, 22014. The finish is parkerized with very little wear and a faint ring around the cylinder.
It has a 4" barrel; marked on top "SMITH & WESSON SPRINGFIELD MASS. USA PATENTED FEB. 6, 06, SEPT. 14, 09, DEC. 29, 14"; marked on left side "SMITH & WESSON"; and marked on the right side "38 S. & W. SPECIAL CTG".
The right side of the frame near the front is marked "MADE IN U.S.A." and the right side plate has the S&W logo.
The hammer is case-hardened, grips are standard smooth walnut, and it has a lanyard swivel.
My cell phone takes good pictures but I'll need instruction as how to send & post them. Thanks.

 

[tenntex32]

My dad had this one since I was a child and left it to me when he passed in 1982. i'd love to learn more about it.
The serial no. on the butt is V175051 with a number inside the crane, 22014. The finish is parkerized with very little wear and a faint ring around the cylinder.
It has a 4" barrel; marked on top "SMITH & WESSON SPRINGFIELD MASS. USA PATENTED FEB. 6, 06, SEPT. 14, 09, DEC. 29, 14"; marked on left side "SMITH & WESSON"; and marked on the right side "38 S. & W. SPECIAL CTG".
The right side of the frame near the front is marked "MADE IN U.S.A." and the right side plate has the S&W logo.
The hammer is case-hardened, grips are standard smooth walnut, and it has a lanyard swivel.
My cell phone takes good pictures but I'll need instruction as how to send & post them. Thanks.

Can you tell us if there are any markings on the left side topstrap, such as "U.S. PROPERTY G.H.D" or "U.S. NAVY"?

Also, are there any flaming ordnance bombs stamped on the revolver such as the one seen on in the butt pic I have provided? (The flaming ordnance bomb is to the left of the "V" on the example I have provided a pic of.)

Dale

 

[grendelbean]

No "S" on the side plate and no "S" anywhere on the revolver save the serial number marking on the butt. Commercial blue finish that shows just the slightest bit of holster wear. The ejector rod end is knurled and of the typical victory model style.
Seems as though this one was assembled in the transition period when they were finally using up the remaining Victory frames and before they changed over to pure commercial serial numbers?

 

[grendelbean]

Post Victory Model M&P

Hello Grendelbean:

Thanks for your post. I have included your S836036 in the Database although technically it is not a Victory since it does not have a V or SV in the serial prefix. However, I am not that fussy and will say that we have quite a few post-WW2 S prefix guns in the Database since those guns share many features with the Victory.

Member Jack is the local expert on the post-Victory guns around here so I am sure that he will interested to see your example.

Does it have a small "s" on the side plate?

One odd feature I noticed is that the tops of both Magna stocks appear to me to be shaved or sanded down. Are the stocks serial number matching to the gun?

Thanks again for the data.

No "S" on the side plate and no "S" anywhere on the revolver save the serial number marking on the butt.
Finish is commercial blue with the slightest bit of holster wear.
Ejector rod knob is knurled and of the Victory Model Style.

Stocks show no sign of being sanded down although they are thicker around the middle (obvious by feel) than older Magna. The top of the stocks is contoured down to the frame from just above the medallion, but done so professionally as in the factory, with the finish the same as the rest of the stockls. Yes, the number stamped in two lines on the inside of the right stock is the correct serial for the gun, matching all the other serial markings.
Seems possible this was put together in the transition period when they were running out of remaining Victory Model frames and getting ready to change over the straight "C" commercial era?

 

[Absalom]

No "S" on the side plate and no "S" anywhere on the revolver save the serial number marking on the butt.
..........
Ejector rod knob is knurled and of the Victory Model Style.
.........
Seems possible this was put together in the transition period when they were running out of remaining Victory Model frames and getting ready to change over the straight "C" commercial era?

Grendelbean:

On your S836036, the absence of both the S and of a plugged lanyard hole clearly establishes that this gun is NOT any "transitional" gun, but a standard post-war M&P newly manufactured in mid-1946 in the S-prefix series.

The ejector rod tip changed in mid-1947.

Some folks keep insisting on calling the entire post-war S-prefix series from 1946 to 1948 "transitional" and think they contain leftover Victory parts. They don't, and most collectors don't use the transitional description.

 

[grendelbean]

Thanks for the information. I do have it cataloged in my accumulation as a "Post War M&P."

 

[Absalom]

Thanks for the information. I do have it cataloged in my accumulation as a "Post War M&P."

As an additional thought, it is really best to think about the Victory not as a separate gun, but simply a continuation of the same M&P through the war years. The different finish, stocks, and swivel of the Victory were peripherals. This is also reflected in the factory all through Victory production never calling the gun anything other than .38 M&P.

The M&P is the only model which has that continuity. All others experienced a hiatus and it makes sense to talk about pre-war vs. post-war parts.

 

[tymekeeper]

Can you tell us if there are any markings on the left side topstrap, such as "U.S. PROPERTY G.H.D" or "U.S. NAVY"?

Also, are there any flaming ordnance bombs stamped on the revolver such as the one seen on in the butt pic I have provided? (The flaming ordnance bomb is to the left of the "V" on the example I have provided a pic of.)

Dale

There are no markings on either side of the topstrap.
There is a stamp of the flame and very top arc of the bomb shown in your pic. It is located on the butt, to left of the swivel. the whole serial no. is to the right of the swivel.

 

[opoefc]

Add to data base. V749985, converted to .22Rf by Parker-Hale, London. New 6 in Bbl. , adjustable sights , non S&W stocks, Merchon grip adapter British proofs. Ed.

 

[ordnanceguy]

Add to data base. V7749985 Ed.

Thanks, Ed. However, it appears that the serial number has at least one too many digits in it. Can you take another look at it, please?

 

[ordnanceguy]

Got it, Ed. Thank you.

 

[Abarbanel]

I picked up a Victory revolver late last year. Its serial number is V110017. The top strap is marked U.S. NAVY. The cylinder is marked with this number as well as the underside of the barrel, underside of the extractor star and the right grip.
The left side of the grip frame has a 0. There are two 5s on it. One 5 has a 0 or o struck over its lower part.
The right side of the grip frame has a punch mark and what looks to be a flaming bomb on its side. There is a L and a 6 or a B. The is something that also looks like an upside down T.
The Yoke has a 5 and 10 separated from it and assembly number of 59723. The yoke frame area has a 5 and the assembly number 59723.

I wanted to add this to the database or see if it is already on it. Any ideas on when it shipped and where it may have originally been shipped. to?
Thank you.

 

[DWalt]

V110017 probably shipped around September-October 1942. The closest SN I have listed is V109432 which shipped on 9/28/42. As to where it was first shipped, about all that can be said was to some Navy supply depot. Navy guns were marked with the "U. S. NAVY" property stamp until about SN V265xxx.

 

[kennyb]

Feel free to add to the data base.Feel free to educate me as its my first Victory model.
It came with what I believe is the original brown holster,large US stamp and stamped 1943 on the back.
Roy dates it to Jan.1943
.38 S&W special cartridge on the right side of the 4" barrel.
serial # V 438367 Butt,under barrel,cylinder
lanyard in place
original walnut grips
small P upper left of strap
V P and maybe C (maybe s) rear of cylinder in addition to the serial number.
greyish parkerized finish overall very nice condition.Any information is greatly appreciated.I have a lot of Smith and colts however I know pretty much zilch on the fine victory models.THANKS in advance!!

 

[DWalt]

"Roy dates it to Jan.1943 38 S&W special cartridge on the right side of the 4" barrel. serial # V 438367 Butt,under barrel,cylinder"

He may have said that, but 1/43 seems to be much too early for that SN. Most of them on my list with SNs in the same neighborhood shipped around October 1943. The highest SN I see for a 1/43 shipment is around V 239xxx. See: http://www.coolgunsite.com/pistols/victory_model_smith_and_wesson.htm

 

[Absalom]

....
It came with what I believe is the original brown holster,large US stamp and stamped 1943 on the back.
Roy dates it to Jan.1943
......
small P upper left of strap
V P and maybe C (maybe s) rear of cylinder in addition to the serial number.

I saw where Roy said that and was a bit nonplussed. I agree with DWalt that this is hard to reconcile with our available data.

In addition, by your description your gun shows the P proofs on cylinder and left frame which were not applied in those locations until late 1943.

You don't mention any topstrap property stamping. If there isn't one, the gun was most likely a DSC contract gun shipped to a civilian end user, and it's less likely that the military holster you have came with it from the war.

 

[kennyb]

I saw where Roy said that and was a bit nonplussed. I agree with DWalt that this is hard to reconcile with our available data.

In addition, by your description your gun shows the P proofs on cylinder and left frame which were not applied in those locations until late 1943.

You don't mention any topstrap property stamping. If there isn't one, the gun was most likely a DSC contract gun shipped to a civilian end user, and it's less likely that the military holster you have came with it from the war.

there are no topstrap markings...I did locate the ordinance bomb on the butt,next to the V

 

[ordnanceguy]

Hello KennyB:

Thanks for providing the information on your revolver for the Database. From the Database I would estimate that your revolver V438367 likely shipped from the factory in the November, 1943 time frame.

 

[kennyb]

Hello KennyB:

Thanks for providing the information on your revolver for the Database. From the Database I would estimate that your revolver V438367 likely shipped from the factory in the November, 1943 time frame.

Charlie,Thanks so much sir..and to all that have information.We are all so fortunate to have a forum such as this one!

 

[grendelbean]

U.S. Navy Victory Model for Data Base

I believe this is a U.S. Navy order Victory Model the Serial is:
V200929 and it has the stamping "U.S. NAVY" on the left side of the top strap.
Serial in all the correct places except stocks. Although they are the correct type stock, they are replacements with no numbers.
On the right grip frame there are stampings that I haven't seen a lot: "1161", R and a square stamp (both 1 mm in size), at the heel is the stamp of a diamond shape and at the top of the back strap under the grip is the Letter "V".
Otherwise seems a standard victory model with what seems to be a Black Magic-style finish.
Of course it is in .38 S&W SPECIAL.
Thanks.

 

[grendelbean]

I believe this is a U.S. Navy order Victory Model the Serial is:
V200929 and it has the stamping "U.S. NAVY" on the left side of the top strap.
Serial in all the correct places except stocks. Although they are the correct type stock, they are replacements with no numbers.
On the right grip frame there are stampings that I haven't seen a lot: "1161", R and a square stamp (both 1 mm in size), at the heel is the stamp of a diamond shape and at the top of the back strap under the grip is the Letter "V".
Otherwise seems a standard victory model with what seems to be a Black Magic-style finish.
Of course it is in .38 S&W SPECIAL.
Thanks.

After thinking more about the grip frame stampings I wonder if they mean the gun was refinished at the factory in November 1961? That from the Diamond stamped on the heel and the "1161" stamped on the toe of the left side of the grip strap.
This may not be an unreasonable assumption, as I know they were still in use after 1961. I was issued a Victory Model in 1963 as a Naval Aviator, was issued another one (2" barrel) when I first got to Vietnam on the Naval Intelligence Staff, and finally had to qualify with a 4" Victory Model in 1973 when first assigned to the Naval Investigatiave Service Office in New York. So - a Victory Model being refinished and reissued in 1961 doesn't seem too far fetched. Can anyone, who actually knows, add some real knowledge?

 

[tenntex32]

After thinking more about the grip frame stampings I wonder if they mean the gun was refinished at the factory in November 1961? That from the Diamond stamped on the heel and the "1161" stamped on the toe of the left side of the grip strap.
This may not be an unreasonable assumption, as I know they were still in use after 1961. I was issued a Victory Model in 1963 as a Naval Aviator, was issued another one (2" barrel) when I first got to Vietnam on the Naval Intelligence Staff, and finally had to qualify with a 4" Victory Model in 1973 when first assigned to the Naval Investigatiave Service Office in New York. So - a Victory Model being refinished and reissued in 1961 doesn't seem too far fetched. Can anyone, who actually knows, add some real knowledge?

Pics of the example and markings in question would help greatly.

Sounds like you have much firsthand experience with the Victory model. Would you happen to have any pics of yourself with any of them while you were in the Navy?

You know we love pics of Victory models in actual use!

Dale

 

[Absalom]

After thinking more about the grip frame stampings I wonder if they mean the gun was refinished at the factory in November 1961? That from the Diamond stamped on the heel and the "1161" stamped on the toe of the left side of the grip strap.
.... So - a Victory Model being refinished and reissued in 1961 doesn't seem too far fetched. Can anyone, who actually knows, add some real knowledge?

Stranger things have happened. But I doubt very much that the Navy would have bothered.

I could envision a collector having the factory recondition his Victory. The un-numbered stocks would fit with that. Back in 1961 the S&W shop might have been flexible enough to take such jobs. You should ask Roy behind the SWCA curtain and maybe have Bill Cross run the serial.

 

[tenntex32]

I too am curious about the possible S&W rework markings. I have always heard that S&W would not do rework on Victory models, but I kinda took that as an absolute with regards to Victory models in civilian ownership.

Surely S&W wouldn't turn down refurbishment rework on a large enough batch from the Government/Navy...…...especially if Navy fliers still used them extensively post-WWII? (I still think that there would have been gobs of them still floating around in Navy supply/armory inventories so that actually having to have S&W repair/refurbish any of them would be a bit unusual and/or unnecessary.)

It does bring up a very interesting topic with regards to possible factory rework/refurbishment government contract(s) pertaining to the Victory model. You would think if it was truly a large need it would have been performed at an arsenal or armory level similar to what happened with the M1917 revolvers...…..but I've never really heard of either large scale factory refurbishment or arsenal refurbishment for Victory models for the govt/military.

Could it simply be it was easier for the smaller unit level to simply send Victory revolvers back to S&W as the need arose, versus trying to get a repair/replacement internally within the Navy supply chain? (Assuming S&W would even work on them?) It all seems a bit unusual to me, but heck I'm always surprised when it comes to "never say never".

Definitely much food for thought and actual data supporting either would be greatly appreciated!

Dale

 

[kenjen]

Here is another one to add, picked it up about a year ago. V1913xx 38. SW with a 5" bbl, flaming bomb and GHD on butt. Made in USA on right side and a large S&W logo on side plate. All matching numbers, Smith & Wesson on left side of bbl. and 38 s&w ctr on right side, address and patient date on the top.

 

[DWalt]

I too am curious about the possible S&W rework markings. I have always heard that S&W would not do rework on Victory models, but I kinda took that as an absolute with regards to Victory models in civilian ownership.

Surely S&W wouldn't turn down refurbishment rework on a large enough batch from the Government/Navy...…...especially if Navy fliers still used them extensively post-WWII. (I still think that there would have been gobs of them still floating around in Navy supply/armory inventories so that actually having to have S&W repair/refurbish any of them would be a bit unusual and/or unnecessary.)

It does bring up a very interesting topic with regards to possible factory rework/refurbishment government contract(s) pertaining to the Victory model. You would think if it was truly a large need it would have been performed at an arsenal or armory level similar to what happened with the M1917 revolvers...…..but I've never really heard of either factory refurbishment or arsenal refurbishment for Victory models for the govt/military.

Definitely much food for thought and actual data supporting either would be greatly appreciated!

Dale

My assumption was that if refurbishment of Victories had been required, at least in any quantity, they would have been sent to one of the military arsenals where that sort of work was done routinely rather than back to S&W.